[RAW] Multiple First-Aid's Treating Shock

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by MrFix

The issue is that there's no word 'each' or 'one attempt' or any variation.

The way you read it has an issue - the only way basic set tracks injuries is via HP loss and crippling system. There's no other way. If it was the way you read it, it'd imply that a person with 3 1 hp worth of dog bites would be entitled to 3 first aid attempts at 3d hp healed total because he has "three separate injuries". At TL8. Which in effect is multiple shock treatments with a requirement of it being 3 separate injuries instead of one.

PS: Nowhere in basic set it outlines what you wrote about stacking, treat shock being once per encounter, etc. RAW there's also no limit on HP healed from bandaging a wound. 1 HP worth of damage still entitles you to full 1d at tl8.

Feel free to provide page numbers and quotes to back your claims up.

For the multiple injuries, i completed my post to address that point :)

For quotes :
Clarification from PK:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...57&postcount=3

Also, while Campaign is unclear, DFRPG clarify it :
DFRPG exploit p 59 : All injury is marked off against your HP score – there’s no need to record separate wounds.
DFRPG exploit p 63 : Patching Up ... For most tasks below, one attempt is allowed.

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

For the multiple injuries, i completed my post to address that point :)

For quotes :
Clarification from PK:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...57&postcount=3

Also, while Campaign is unclear, DFRPG clarify it :
DFRPG exploit p 59 : All injury is marked off against your HP score – there’s no need to record separate wounds.
DFRPG exploit p 63 : Patching Up ... For most tasks below, one attempt is allowed.

DFRPG has various differences from 4e but it is an acceptable answer to me more or less. I'll read that part in detail later. I do still want to see something from mainline 4e tho.

Hmm... Doesn't that still permit dog bites and letter knife stabs to refresh first aid and prompt another 1d?

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by MrFix

After playing GURPS for years thinking that you could only Treat Shock (and thus restore a 1d of HP) once per... unspecified time, I actually went ahead to read the entry for Treating Shock in detail. There's no outright stated limit to number of times, or delay between attempts, or separation by wound.

RAW, it seems, you can try to Treat Shock as many times as you like, regardless of previous outcome, with no delay between attempts. This concept doesn't seem to be clarified in uFAQ either.

Do any GURPS books expand on this or provide explicit limits on Treat Shock?
Do you understand Treat Shock as a one-time thing? If so, at what point can Treat Shock be used again on the same character?


P.S.: Let's not hang up on the name of the maneuver, as GURPS is often not very good with these things, and description of the maneuver also outlines "applying a more elaborate dressing", which reasonably can happen multiple times if the victim has multiple wounds. Of course, with GURPS having no rules for actual real life shock, only 'momentary stun of pain', the naming is doubly obtuse.

Originally Posted by MrFix

The issue is that there's no word 'each' or 'one attempt' or any variation.

The way you read it has an issue - the only way basic set tracks injuries is via HP loss and crippling system. There's no other way. If it was the way you read it, it'd imply that a person with 3 1 hp worth of dog bites would be entitled to 3 first aid attempts at 3d hp healed total because he has "three separate injuries". At TL8. Which in effect is multiple shock treatments with a requirement of it being 3 separate injuries instead of one.

PS: Nowhere in basic set it outlines what you wrote about stacking, treat shock being once per encounter, etc. RAW there's also no limit on HP healed from bandaging a wound. 1 HP worth of damage still entitles you to full 1d at tl8.

Feel free to provide page numbers and quotes to back your claims up.

Thing is you have to look at the wording in the context of what the system is trying to do here.

So yes you could read pg424 as being able to repeatedly apply first aid against shock and heal HPs as per the table as many times as you like.

But what would that actually mean in play?

That leaving aside any other specific negative consequences with specific injuries e.g. crippled limbs, failing a Mortal wound check. You can heal up as may HP's as you like just with consecutive successful first aid rolls.

That doesn't sound very likely does it? Especially as if that were the intent it would lead to far faster healing than the later medical cares rules on pg424-5

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

I don't see how you read that.

Basic p424 (and Biotech p 123-124) is quite clear :

For each injuries/encounter**, you can have one first aid attempt consisting of up to 2 First aid roll (not counting resuscitation, ...)

One first Aid roll ("bandaging ") to stop bleeding (if there is bleeding) - one minute unless modified by gear. Stop bleeding and restore 1 HP.
One first Aid roll ("treat shock") for extended dressing/treating shock/.. - time needed and HP restored varies by TL.

** : If you suffer several wounds during the same encounter, 4e assume you pool them and treat them as a single loss. A common approach is to track each injury separately for bleeding. The "treat shock" roll is once per encounter. So is the 1hp recovered by bandaging even if you roll to stop bleeding for each separate injuries.

Yep that's what I do, shock is in RL and RAW a bit of a nebulous concept especially in RAW in regards to HPs lost and regained.

On top of that HP's in general seem to represent different things at different times, if you get stabbed for a 6point injury and then receiving a TL8 first aid roll to treat shock get 6hp recovered its not like the the wound had knitted itself back together in 10 minutes!

(I often think of HPs as keeping track of how close to various fail states your body is getting)

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Thing is you have to look at the wording in the context of what the system is trying to do here.

So yes you could read pg424 as being able to repeatedly apply first aid against shock and heal HPs as per the table as many times as you like.

But what would that actually mean in play?

That leaving aside any other specific negative consequences with specific injuries e.g. crippled limbs, failing a Mortal wound check. You can heal up as may HP's as you like just with consecutive successful first aid rolls.

That doesn't sound very likely does it? Especially as if that were the intent it would lead to far faster healing than the later medical cares rules on pg424-5

Treat shock already has potential to equal to 6 days of bed rest and can completely negate a 9x18 bullet lodged in their gut. Thats more of a statement about long term care being too weaksauce. Realistically shock is an affliction that drains HP due to failure of circulatory system, and thus realistic first aid is just bandaging + removal of the affliction. It certainly feels like gurps can't decide whether it's medicine is cinematic or realistic.
6 hp is enough to treat crippled limb of 10 HP human.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by MrFix

6 hp is enough to treat crippled limb of 10 HP human.

Except that, per p. B424, treating a lasting crippling injury requires surgery, which would take Surgery skill rather than First Aid skill; and treating a permanent crippling injury requires surgery at -3, if it's possible at all. The fact that the Basic Set doesn't explicitly say "first aid cannot treat lasting crippling injuries" doesn't mean that it can; the Basic Set discusses using first aid to treat injuries, but then turns to surgery and, under that head, brings up treating various sorts of crippling injuries, and that implies that surgery is the minimum for doing this. You can't expect the Basic Set to spend wordcount saying "this skill can't do X and Y and Z" every time that comes up.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by MrFix

Treat shock already has potential to equal to 6 days of bed rest and can completely negate a 9x18 bullet lodged in their gut. Thats more of a statement about long term care being too weaksauce.

which to me suggests it's designed to be a one success only type of thing, (but see my other post about what actually HPs are and what they represent at different points).

Originally Posted by MrFix

Realistically shock is an affliction that drains HP due to failure of circulatory system,

Realistically shock is kind of a nebulous thing. We tend to measure it in terms of it's effects on the circulatory system (or rather the whole ABC) but that's because we tend to measure a lot of negative effects of trauma in terms of ABC because well baring direct damage to the brain that's what kills you.

Shock tends to be a response to trauma, and while there are some pretty common cause and effect to shock (e.g. lose enough blood and your circulatory system will shut down) it's not always the case.


EDIT: actually I say ABC, not sure A is going be as relevent as B or C!

Originally Posted by MrFix

and thus realistic first aid is just bandaging + removal of the affliction. It certainly feels like gurps can't decide whether it's medicine is cinematic or realistic.

If we view shock in the RL medical sense as an affliction in GURPS terms, then it kind of make sense that once it's negated (by a successful first aid role) its done.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Except that, per p. B424, treating a lasting crippling injury requires surgery, which would take Surgery skill rather than First Aid skill; and treating a permanent crippling injury requires surgery at -3, if it's possible at all. The fact that the Basic Set doesn't explicitly say "first aid cannot treat lasting crippling injuries" doesn't mean that it can; the Basic Set discusses using first aid to treat injuries, but then turns to surgery and, under that head, brings up treating various sorts of crippling injuries, and that implies that surgery is the minimum for doing this. You can't expect the Basic Set to spend wordcount saying "this skill can't do X and Y and Z" every time that comes up.

Yep which kind of goes to the point that HPs are pretty abstract, it's the negative effects of reaching various states in GURPS that matters more. We use HPs as a measure to track weather we do so in different circumstances. So we look for reasonable intent of that happening according to what the system is doing e.g. different ways of recovering them, or reducing them.

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Except that, per p. B424, treating a lasting crippling injury requires surgery, which would take Surgery skill rather than First Aid skill; and treating a permanent crippling injury requires surgery at -3, if it's possible at all. The fact that the Basic Set doesn't explicitly say "first aid cannot treat lasting crippling injuries" doesn't mean that it can; the Basic Set discusses using first aid to treat injuries, but then turns to surgery and, under that head, brings up treating various sorts of crippling injuries, and that implies that surgery is the minimum for doing this. You can't expect the Basic Set to spend wordcount saying "this skill can't do X and Y and Z" every time that comes up.

Non-lasting aka temporary crippling injury disappears when patient's HP is fully restored.

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

If we view shock in the RL medical sense as an affliction in GURPS terms, then it kind of make sense that once it's negated (by a successful first aid role) its done.

I agree, but the issue is that what gurps calls treating shock is unrelated to IRL shock OR Gurps shock. Hence first post asking not to get caught up on gurps naming for the maneuver. No part of treating shock irl can turn major wound into fully treated scab that lets you get right back into a gunfight.