Dose Lowering Will or Per when raising IQ count against the disadvantage limit?

[Kfireblade]

It seems to me it should, though my group has had a GM who did not have it do so. One of my players is asking me now and my first instinct is yes it dose.

[Anthony]

GMs discretion, but typically yes.

[AlexanderHowl]

Yes, lower Per and lower Will than IQ is a negative trait, so it is a disadvantage and counts against the disadvantage limit. If you purchase IQ 16, a Per 10 and a Will 10 counts as 60 points of disadvantages. This is probably a deliberate design feature to prevent super intelligent characters below 100 points.

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by Anthony

GMs discretion, but typically yes.

My understanding is that, by the rules as written, it does count against the disadvantage limit. GM's who chose to not count it are invoking a house rule.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Kfireblade

It seems to me it should, though my group has had a GM who did not have it do so. One of my players is asking me now and my first instinct is yes it dose.

Everything with a negative point value counts against the disadvantage limit. That includes lowered attributes, lowered secondary characteristics, and quirks, not just the traits known as "disadvantages." If you have IQ 12 [40] and Per 10 [-10], those -10 points from Per count against any campaign disadvantage limit.

The sole exception to this is that when assessing meta-traits and racial templates, you don't count the individual disadvantages; you just total it all up, and treat the whole thing as one big advantage or disadvantage. For example, the Felinoid racial template from p. B261 includes Impulsiveness and Sleepy, but these don't count against your personal disadvantage limit; you just treat "Felinoid" as thought it were its own 35-point advantage.

That said, the idea of a disadvantage limit is explicitly an optional rule, which means the GM can simply ignore it. Thus, it's certainly no more broken to change what does and doesn't count against the limit. It's a house rule, but a reasonable one.

[Zarmonic]

I see the case for having such modifiers count against the limit but I GM games like they do not.

My reasoning being is that the main point of the disad limit is to keep the the PC's from being psychopaths out of control of even the players themselves. Something like a reduced Per is really just statistical. It's the kind of thing where the immediate drawbacks are clear and apparent but not necessarily game breaking.

Put a limit on it if anyone tries to abuse it.

[Flyndaran]

I find it absurd to effectively penalize realistic characters that are smart but only average in perception and will, but it is RAW.

[Ninja Monkey]

As long as a secondary stat does not go below 10, I allow reductions to not count towards disadvantage limit. I do require however that the realistic variation rule apply as per Hit Points on p.16 of Basic. My rational is that a character is buying Strength without the Hit Points, IQ without the Perception and Will bonus etc. and not reducing the secondary stat. It does make Health, with the Fatigue and Speed reduced, very cheap at a net 2pts/level, but then I limit basic human stats to 17 with an UB for 16 and 17 scores, at 10 pts each. That tends to keep Health at no higher than 15. The plus side for me is that character survival rates in combat and against disease and poison is increased.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

I find it absurd to effectively penalize realistic characters that are smart but only average in perception and will, but it is RAW.

There is no RAW penalization. As noted by PK, disadvantage limit is just an optional rule.

The goal is to help GM and players to get playable characters (that is characters without so many disadvantage that they become ridiculous - which happened once in my games, while I didn't want to fix any disadvantage limit).

But if the character remains clearly consistent, the GM is not enforced to apply this option by the letter. It is just designed to help him - not to hinder him.

[Flyndaran]

It does penalize them by making it act as if it were a disadvantage. Being more perceptive and willful than the norm is not a disadvantage. So what if you're very intelligent? But that's a discussion that just goes around and around.

It's a game mechanic that has no relation to reality whatsoever, and every game will have some.