[RPM] Altered Traits

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

To let someone else do it would always be Altered Traits, though.

Yes. Absolutely.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Control Mind wouldn't let you enable your friend Bob to control someone's mind. I suppose you could use a Control Mind effect on multiple people with Area Effect, so long as you were making them all do the same thing. I was just reading a book where the villain was doing something that would be modeled in just that way, actually. He was using magic (energy got from sacrificing people) to use a Greater Control Mind effect with Conditioning to make everyone like and respect him and react violently to anyone badmouthing him, in an ever-increasing area as he got more energy to pump into his spells.

You are overlooking charms though or potions for that matter.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Challenge accepted! ^_^

Yes, you could do it. But that wasn't the point (or at least I thought) those things don't need Altered Traits to do that stuff. Adding altered traits is like putting powdered sugar on a glazed doughnut. It's all fun and games till you end up with diabetes and pancreatic cancer.

[momothefiddler]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

That indeed is challenging, but seems like a variant trait somewhere between Rules Exemption and Extra Option. Iffy, I know.

Being treated by a doctor just gives you +1 to healing rolls, easily covered by Bestows a Bonus. It also lets the doctor make Physician rolls to heal you. If you want to include that, it's just Regeneration, perhaps with Unreliable -10%. The exact level depends on TL, but Slow is enough to handle up through TL9, and before that you can limit it further (can you apply Takes Extra Time to Regen(Slow) to make it 1 per 24 hours? That'd cover TL6-8).

Altogether maybe 10 energy - 2 for the Bonus and 8 for the Regen.

[momothefiddler]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Yes, you could do it. But that wasn't the point (or at least I thought) those things don't need Altered Traits to do that stuff. Adding altered traits is like putting powdered sugar on a glazed doughnut. It's all fun and games till you end up with diabetes and pancreatic cancer.

See, I also misunderstood. I thought the point was that Strengthen Body could be used on its own for things that couldn't be done with Altered Traits. If Strengthen Body can apply Metabolism Control without Altered Traits, why can't it apply DR without Altered Traits?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by momothefiddler

Being treated by a doctor just gives you +1 to healing rolls, easily covered by Bestows a Bonus. It also lets the doctor make Physician rolls to heal you. If you want to include that, it's just Regeneration, perhaps with Unreliable -10%. The exact level depends on TL, but Slow is enough to handle up through TL9, and before that you can limit it further (can you apply Takes Extra Time to Regen(Slow) to make it 1 per 24 hours? That'd cover TL6-8).

Sure, but I was trying to be as close to the request as possible. The first level of Regeneration is generally a better deal, yes.

[momothefiddler]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Sure, but I was trying to be as close to the request as possible. The first level of Regeneration is generally a better deal, yes.

Maybe I misunderstood the original, but Regeneration(Unreliable -10%, Takes Extra Time -10%) [8] seems like a perfectly reasonable way to model the TL8 healing of a doctor with Physician-14. Is there something that provides that the doctor doesn't?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by momothefiddler

Maybe I misunderstood the original, but Regeneration(Unreliable -10%, Takes Extra Time -10%) [8] seems like a perfectly reasonable way to model the TL8 healing of a doctor with Physician-14. Is there something that provides that the doctor doesn't?

Well, some stuff like being able to heal Major Wounds caused by burning or something like that.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by momothefiddler

See, I also misunderstood. I thought the point was that Strengthen Body could be used on its own for things that couldn't be done with Altered Traits. If Strengthen Body can apply Metabolism Control without Altered Traits, why can't it apply DR without Altered Traits?

See, here's the thing. Sometimes you can achieve effects only with Altered Traits - and that's cool. Sometimes you can achieve effects without Altered Traits - also cool. Then there are times when you can do both - here is where it is not cool. If you can achieve a desired spell by just using a Effect then adding a Altered Trait feels like paying for it twice. Usually this takes the form of something like Transmogrification where turning your enemy into a frog is way harder than it should be. The trick to adding Altered Traits is more about how the GM is perceiving your spell than anything else (other than the guidelines I posted). So if you think you (the GM) should add Altered Traits for something, then do so...but don't punish your players for coming up with inventive solutions.

[momothefiddler]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Well, some stuff like being able to heal Major Wounds caused by burning or something like that.

Ooh, okay. Good point.

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

See, here's the thing. Sometimes you can achieve effects only with Altered Traits - and that's cool. Sometimes you can achieve effects without Altered Traits - also cool. Then there are times when you can do both - here is where it is not cool. If you can achieve a desired spell by just using a Effect then adding a Altered Trait feels like paying for it twice. Usually this takes the form of something like Transmogrification where turning your enemy into a frog is way harder than it should be. The trick to adding Altered Traits is more about how the GM is perceiving your spell than anything else (other than the guidelines I posted). So if you think you (the GM) should add Altered Traits for something, then do so...but don't punish your players for coming up with inventive solutions.

I guess I'd just really like a treatment of what can be done without Altered Traits. Like how T:RPM discusses what Lesser and Greater effects can do - I want to know what they can do without extra spell effects so I have some way of knowing which effects need to be added and which are redundant. Like, Lesser Strengthen Body "can improve someone’s physical attributes or secondary characteristics by up to about 30% (rounded up)". I presume that requires Altered Traits. I suppose it's too late now, and it would have added a lot of extra wordcount, but it might have been nice to have something more like "Lesser Strengthen Body can __________. With the addition of Bestows a Bonus, it can ______________ and with Altered Traits it can _________________." or something similar. Because you reference the things the effects can do by themselves and I have no clue what those things are.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by momothefiddler

I guess I'd just really like a treatment of what can be done without Altered Traits. Like how T:RPM discusses what Lesser and Greater effects can do - I want to know what they can do without extra spell effects so I have some way of knowing which effects need to be added and which are redundant. Like, Lesser Strengthen Body "can improve someone’s physical attributes or secondary characteristics by up to about 30% (rounded up)". I presume that requires Altered Traits. I suppose it's too late now, and it would have added a lot of extra wordcount, but it might have been nice to have something more like "Lesser Strengthen Body can __________. With the addition of Bestows a Bonus, it can ______________ and with Altered Traits it can _________________." or something similar. Because you reference the things the effects can do by themselves and I have no clue what those things are.

It would have added a HUGE amount of word count. I think a lot of GURPSers get hung up on RPM because it is a very Rules Zero system (so is GURPS itself, but don't tell some folks that - they get pissy). Yes, RPM has a framwork, yes it has a very defined set of what it cannot and can do...and yet it doesn't. That's the problem with all freeform magic systems, and to a larger degree magic systems in general. It's like the old saying "Fast, Cheap, or Good. Pick Two." Except in this instance it's "Coverage, Flexibility, Balanced. Pick Two." RPM is both flexible and balanced, but the edge cases are not covered in any high degree. If I were to write a theoretical "GURPS Thaumatology: Ritual Path Magic Companion" this is one of the things I would cover in some detail. But even with such detail there would still be things I couldn't go into or cover and the GM would be in the same position. The best way to learn what is possible and impossible is to question and experiment. That's how I learned.

[rsqrdroberts]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

If I were to write a theoretical "GURPS Thaumatology: Ritual Path Magic Companion" this is one of the things I would cover in some detail. But even with such detail there would still be things I couldn't go into or cover and the GM would be in the same position.

Yes. Please write "GURPS Thaumatology: Ritual Path Magic Companion."

I created a new thread that should have been a reply to this thread, so I am going to be doing more damage by re-asking it here. Apologies in advance.

Take Silence (RPM p. 49) vs. Ghost Shirt (RPM p. 43).

Silence is a spell that just has Greater Destroy Energy and Area of Effect, with no Altered Traits for 48 energy (15x3). Ghost Shirt has Greater Control Energy and an Altered Traits based on Damage Resistance for 135 energy (45x3). How do these fit in with Ghostdancer's guidelines?

My question comes from considering a spell that would de-cohere Laser to just a bright, mostly harmless, light source. Should it be a simple Greater Destroy Energy, a simple Greater Transform Energy, or should I start adding Damage Reduction with Limited, Force Shield, Hardened, and other "expenses?" My gut tells me use the straight up Destroy or Transform Energy, but then I look over at Ghost Shirt...