Human max for secondary attributes? (Per, will, FP)

[BraselC5048]

There's been plenty of debate over the maximum stats for a normal human. I figure that a max of 14 for HT is pretty well established. IQ has been done to death many times over, and although I have my ideas on that, I don't this to turn into another thread on that topic. ST has been computed many times over, and considering lifting skill not working very well, nobody has really agreed on that. It almost seems that ST is better treated as "what ST should this type of person/character have."

For what it's worth, I figure that for DX, HT and ST are average for the 18-22 year old population, not general society. The average 40 year old is likely DX and ST 9, maybe a little lower.

As best as I've been able figure out, there hasn't really been a thread about the maximum levels for secondary attributes. So here goes - what's the human maximum for Perception, Will, and fatigue points?

Fatigue points could, in theory, be qualified, although Fit and Very Fit would have to be factored in. I figure extreme levels of FP are likely pretty darned heavily correlated with Fit, at least, if not Very Fit. So, it would likely be a calculated value.

Will and Per are harder. In all honesty, it would be somewhat unusual, IMHO, for them to actually be the same as any level of IQ other then 10, and when creating a character, I would frown upon anyone buying up IQ and leaving both Will and Per at the same bought up level. (although I wouldn't have much of a problem with leaving Will the same or slightly lower)

For what it's worth, I figure for Will and Per, 11-12 is perfectly normal, but above average, 13 somewhat more rare, although for Will, perhaps more common among higher IQ's. 14 is "it really should fit the character type," and relatively rare, and 15 is "amazing, and it had better fit the character you're making." Anything higher would be very, very rare, "one of the best of the generation." I suspect fanaticism and high Will tend to go together, though. As for the actual max, I have no idea.

Let the debate begin!

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by BraselC5048

The average 40 year old is likely DX and ST 9, maybe a little lower.

Hey!

More seriously, I don't think so. ST loss doesn't really set in like that unless, well, you get sedentary. My peak strength was in my late 30s, but that's mostly because soon after that, at about 38, I suffered a fairly severe neck injury, which will crimp most anyone's style.

If one were to cast aspersions in reverse, the 18-25 set should likely suffer -1 or -2 to IQ, due to limited experience and impaired judgment. :-)

"How did my Dad get so smart while I was in college?"

[trans]

I don't have any opinion on the maximums, but would note that there are plenty of men, anyway, who are as strong or stronger at 40 than they were at 22. Dex and FP can degrade by 40, but not for everyone.

Some changes in sensory abilities are apparently inevitable (not able to adjust visual focus as quickly, reduced range of frequencies that can be heard), but whether that means a drop in Per is another question. Per is in the brain, too.

[ericthered]

Indeed, Per measures both 'I have good senses' and 'I notice things'. The two are bound tightly together, but are quite different

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by BraselC5048

As best as I've been able figure out, there hasn't really been a thread about the maximum levels for secondary attributes. So here goes - what's the human maximum for Perception, Will, and fatigue points?

GURPS assumes 20 on Will and Perception, just like it does with the four basic attributes. HP or FP is up to 30% of your ST or HT respectively. That said I'd find it hard for anyone to have a Perception or Will four or five levels higher than their IQ (up to 20) - that's just personal preference. I don't like PCs having statistics above 16 + Racial Bonus without a good reason, or if no reason, Special Exercises. My PCs are are okay with this for the most part and I rarely have issues because most of them prefer skills and talents over raw stats.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by BraselC5048

Fatigue points could, in theory, be qualified, although Fit and Very Fit would have to be factored in. I figure extreme levels of FP are likely pretty darned heavily correlated with Fit, at least, if not Very Fit. So, it would likely be a calculated value.

Will and Per are harder. !

FP can not be reverse engineered from time/distance numbers both because you can not ignore even the simple role of basic HT and/or Running Skill and because the system is broken.

A person with HT 10 and 10 FP becomes "winded" i.e. slows to half speed when he loses his 7th pt of FP. If sprinting this should happen around the 14th of the rolls he makes every 15 seconds. This tells us that a perfectly average man should be able to sprint for circa 3 minutes and 30 seconds. Which is, of course, ridiculous.

However even something as simple as raising Running Skill to HT+2 or 12 doubles this amount of time which is even more ridiculous.

I don't see any way to pick apart the many possible combinations of HT, FP, Running Skill, Fit/Very Fit and the complicating factor that most RW records will be times for a given distance rather than total time to the point of being "winded" along with this time being so much longer in Gurps than in reality.

Will and Per are simpler in that they can't be measured in the Real World at all.

I notice you wisely left out HP which are the other Secondary Attribute. It might be even worse to deal with.

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

If one were to cast aspersions in reverse, the 18-25 set should likely suffer -1 or -2 to IQ, due to limited experience and impaired judgment. :-)

More like impulsive and lack of skills, the biggest problem with young people is not stop to thinking if it's going to work or not.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by trans

I don't have any opinion on the maximums, but would note that there are plenty of men, anyway, who are as strong or stronger at 40 than they were at 22. Dex and FP can degrade by 40, but not for everyone.

Some changes in sensory abilities are apparently inevitable (not able to adjust visual focus as quickly, reduced range of frequencies that can be heard), but whether that means a drop in Per is another question. Per is in the brain, too.

Note too that special cases exist where age brings improvement to sensory performance. Mildly nearsighted people, for ex, sometimes experience 20/20 vision in middle age as the tendency toward farsightedness cancels out the initial problem.

[BraselC5048]

Ok, Ok, sorry I brought attribute loss with age up. How about we try to get this thread back on track. Anybody got any ideas on the max for Will, Per, and FP?

Going from the game mechanics standpoint, Per 15 gives a 95% chance to pass a roll, assuming no penalties. Per 16 gives a 98% chance. With a -5 darkness penalty, perhaps a half moon with an overcast, that's still a 50% chance with Per 15. I'm sure others who have used sense rolls more frequently can come up with other situations (I've never actually required a sense roll in a game I've played).

For will, it's hard to come up with situations that would test the realism of it. Extra effort is likely the best way. With will 15, a -3, 1.15x extra effort is 12 or less, 75% chance. Is that realistic? I have no idea.

There seems to be somewhat of an agreement that FP with very fit is broken? I haven't been able to find any threads on that.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Indeed, Per measures both 'I have good senses' and 'I notice things'. The two are bound tightly together, but are quite different

Acute Senses measure good senses. Per doesn't:

Originally Posted by B296

When your mind moves to a new
body, you gain that body’s ST, DX, and
HT – as well as all secondary charac-
teristics based on those attributes –
and its physical advantages and disad-
vantages. Your IQ, Perception, Will,
and mental advantages and disadvan-
tages don’t change.