Magic on the TL 3 battlefield

[RGTraynor]

(scritches his head) This might seem a horribly obvious solution, but I'll voice it anyway. Wouldn't the simple answer to you using your mages to ring your city with no-mana zones and Pentagrams be "Then I assault your city mundanely, with infantry and siege equipment and catapults and archers and all of that, and I keep my wizards in camp doing healing and CI3 and making defenses and countermagic and all the things they can do that do NOT involve directly attacking the walls? It's not as if YOUR mages can do squat against me, y'know, through all of those anti-magic defenses."

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

(scritches his head) This might seem a horribly obvious solution, but I'll voice it anyway. Wouldn't the simple answer to you using your mages to ring your city with no-mana zones and Pentagrams be "Then I assault your city mundanely, with infantry and siege equipment and catapults and archers and all of that, and I keep my wizards in camp doing healing and CI3 and making defenses and countermagic and all the things they can do that do NOT involve directly attacking the walls? It's not as if YOUR mages can do squat against me, y'know, through all of those anti-magic defenses."

That's an option, but then you're looking at something more akin to a mundane siege rather than "city walls are useless as mages can just tunnel right through them" or whatever paradigm you'd be looking at with magic fully in play. The point would be to drag things out into a siege. Of course, with the topic of tunneling through, there's the question of how far down the protection of a pentagram applies. Magic-immune walls aren't going to do much good if the mages can just tunnel under them...

Of course, if pentagrams do extend a good distance down, that might be the ticket to having them protect the walls themselves rather than needing a wall-pentagram-wall sandwich - you build a tall wall and put the pentagrams up on the top.

EDIT: For an alternate take, while the description of Pentagram notes it is to be drawn on the floor or ground, is this strictly necessary? Might you be able to draw one on the wall instead? That would allow you to place one on the inner surface of a wall and make that section immune from magic, including from the other side, without having to expose the design where infantry can damage it (or even just temporarily "cut" it with chalk or similar).

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Varyon

EDIT: For an alternate take, while the description of Pentagram notes it is to be drawn on the floor or ground, is this strictly necessary?).

It's an example of how official thought on Pentagrams is purely two-dimensiopnal. Tactical scale only too.

So, only an individual GM can give you any answers to your questions and of course, they would apply only in his campaign.

Thinking about it myself I'd use the guidance on Area Spells even though Pentagram isn't an Area Spell. It's at least a input on how other (mostly) Two-D spells work. So it's probably 12 feet up and probably not at all into the floor.

Also, if making a chalk mark on top of a Pentagram "cuts" the design, building a wall on top of one probably does too.

If you rotate a Pentagram from the horizontal to the vertical you'd probabl;y ahve to putit on the outside of the wall and the enemy could negate it with a paint bomb. Even if it worked on the top of the wall the paint bomb would work there too.

It might be time to shift your attention to Permanent Force Walls and Utter Walls. They're impractically expensive but at least their effects are clearer. A defendign Mage corps might be able to use Ceremoimnial Magic to raise tempoirary ones during attacks too.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Thinking about it myself I'd use the guidance on Area Spells even though Pentagram isn't an Area Spell. It's at least a input on how other (mostly) Two-D spells work. So it's probably 12 feet up and probably not at all into the floor.

That sounds like the way to go. You could potentially argue for being able to "stack" areas to get one that goes higher or lower. Basically, the default gets you a column that is 12 feet high. Doubling the energy per square foot changes this to be 24 feet high, tripling it makes it 36 feet high, and so forth.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Also, if making a chalk mark on top of a Pentagram "cuts" the design, building a wall on top of one probably does too.

Yeah, that was my thought when I referenced the "wall-pentagram-wall sandwich" - basically what you'd need to do is build the pentagram between two walls, and the attackers can take out the outer wall with magic but then needs to march troops in (or maybe throw your suggested paint bomb) to disable/destroy the pentagrams before they can use magic on the inner wall. Which may not really slow them down much...

An alternative occurs to me. One should be able to make a Pentagram by using stones of a different color (and possibly shape, if it needs to actually be a circle and some diagonal lines rather than approximating such) for a floor. What if you did this on the top of a wall, but then had stones of the same color (and shape) right below those, and continued this down all the way to the very bottom of the wall's foundation. So anywhere you cut it, it's still a pentagram design. That would probably be rather expensive, calling for a lot more precision than walls normally need, but it seems like that would render the entire wall protected. A ritual "cut" with chalk or similar would only affect that layer of stones. Then again, with part of the design exposed, the enemy could probably just walk up to the wall with a piece of chalk and "cut" each layer they can reach in a single long swipe (or just throw a paint bomb at it), so that probably wouldn't work...

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

If you rotate a Pentagram from the horizontal to the vertical you'd probabl;y ahve to putit on the outside of the wall and the enemy could negate it with a paint bomb. Even if it worked on the top of the wall the paint bomb would work there too.

I'm probably reaching a bit with my interpretation, but it seems like magic is forbidden from affecting a Pentagram - it explicitly notes a mundane rock thrown by a magical creature cannot cross the Pentagram, and it seems like the same should be true of things propelled via magic (for example, I believe missile spells are treated as having mundane projectiles, but Fireball or Stone Missile shouldn't be able to cross a Pentagram). Taking this further, it seems like destroying the base on which the Pentagram is built via magic (using Shape Earth under it to spread it apart, say) should similarly be forbidden, meaning it extends its protection to the surface it is on. If that is the case, then you wouldn't be able to destroy the portion of the wall the Pentagram is built on with magic, protecting it. A particularly-thick wall can probably have its outer surface removed by magic, however, so long as the part with the Pentagram attached stays whole. Failing all that (or to protect a thick wall if my suggestion is accurate), you could do the same "Pentagram all the way down" scheme I suggested above here, except now it's a Pentagram all the way through. So OpFor throws paint on the wall and their war golem (or whatever) charges into it, breaking through the first layer of stones but being rebuffed by the next one (which still has an intact Pentagram).

I'm not sure if you'd need to cast Pentagram separately for each layer or if a single casting would suffice, however.

[RGTraynor]

Hell, that line of thinking could go further yet. What about a Pentagram on a DOOR? Allows mundane people to pass in and out as need be, without risking damaging it, keeps arcane things out.

With that, the way I've ruled their range myself is the same as Fred's: 12'-worth of vertical effect. Not terribly effective in keeping winged beings out.

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

With that, the way I've ruled their range myself is the same as Fred's: 12'-worth of vertical effect. Not terribly effective in keeping winged beings out.

Well it is effective in keeping winged beings out of the PENTAGRAM. (assuming the being is a supernatural type that pentagrams are designed against)

It will not keep the winged being from passing over (or under) the area described by the pentagram.

Perfectly fine by me. Pentagram was a spell designed with a purpose. If you are summoning something you should probably rethink summoning, laying down a pentagram for self-defense is a good idea. The casting cost etc. is reflective of that.

If you want to protect a fortress against any and all magic threats you should research a NEW spell, call it Maignot's Mighty Fortress. Expect the prereqs and costs to be in line with what you are trying to achieve.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Varyon

. If that is the case, then you wouldn't be able to destroy the portion of the wall the Pentagram is built on with magic, protecting it.

I never even considered placing the paint bomb with Magic . I was going throw a pottery container full of paint with a small to medium catapult. You'd probably need multiple tries but paint and crockery is cheap.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I never even considered placing the paint bomb with Magic . I was going throw a pottery container full of paint with a small to medium catapult. You'd probably need multiple tries but paint and crockery is cheap.

What I was getting at with this was that, if the Pentagram is on the other side of the wall (protecting it from the paint), you shouldn't be able to use magic to break down the wall from your side, because doing so would result in using magic to destroy the Pentagram. Just like a demonic mole shouldn't be able to destroy a Pentagram by tunneling under it and then coming up through it, breaking it in the process, and a mage shouldn't be able to use Shape Earth to split the ground beneath the Pentagram apart, destroying the Pentagram.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Thinking about it myself I'd use the guidance on Area Spells even though Pentagram isn't an Area Spell. It's at least a input on how other (mostly) Two-D spells work. So it's probably 12 feet up and probably not at all into the floor.

A number of area spells clearly apply under the surface and don't specifically say so, and pentagram does not work if it doesn't descend below the surface.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Anthony

A number of area spells clearly apply under the surface and don't specifically say so, and pentagram does not work if it doesn't descend below the surface.

It could be that the 3e clause where any hex with a part of the Pentagram in it is protected could apply downward.

So that would be 18 inches for your floor or wall. It's not much for a castle wall but it's something.