Perk count edge cases.

[Hai-Etlik]

I'm trying to make sure I understand how all the perk limit rules work together and ended up with some questions.

• I'd assume perks that are part of racial templates or meta-traits representing things like morphology or cybernetics aren't counted against perk limits?
• Do Combat and Magic perks (both style and non-style) count against the 1/25 pt general perk limit or are they independent?
• Does Style Familiarity count against the appropriate non-style combat/magic perk limit (So you need 20 pt in combat skills before learning a style which seems wrong), the general perk limit, or is it outside the perk limits entirely?
• MA, TS, GF, and PU:2 all seem to describe overlapping components as affecting style perk count independently, if I have 2 styles with 10 points each in exclusive skills, and 10 points in shared skills, then each style has 20 points and gets 2 perks for 4 style perks total. T:MS says that the points in shared spells have to be divided up so in the same situation, one style gets 2 perks and the other gets 1 perk for 3 total. When dealing with styles that mix combat skills and magic like Death Fist in Martial Arts, should these rules follow the type of style (Death Fist is a combat style so it counts independently), or the type of component (Spells are counted only toward one style, skills count toward all styles). Or did I misunderstand and the same rules described in T:MS are meant to apply to all components of all styles?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Hai-Etlik

I'm trying to make sure I understand how all the perk limit rules work together and ended up with some questions.

• I'd assume perks that are part of racial templates or meta-traits representing things like morphology or cybernetics aren't counted against perk limits?
  [
• Does Style Familiarity count against the appropriate non-style combat/magic perk limit (So you need 20 pt in combat skills before learning a style which seems wrong), the general perk limit, or is it outside the perk limits entirely?
  [

Okay, these are the two questions I think I can answer off te top of my head. The others would take research. Questions about Perk Limits aren't common.

First question: There are many 1-pt Advantages that get classed as "Perks" because they only cost 1 pt but they shouldn't usually be treated as "Perks"..Usually _anything_ that's part of a Racial Temp[late or Meta-Trait would n ot count against your general Perk Limit.

The 3rd question about Style Familiarity is one of those cases where there's a 1-pt Advantage. As a general rule you look at the listed Style cost. 1 pt of that will be for Style familiarity and the rest of the pts are for paying for required Style elements. If you're being very detailed you need to buy everything except the Style Familiarity first and then you spend that last pt on style familiarity ad you "know" that Style for all purposes.

At least that would be my ruling as GM. Others might not care even that much and let you buy the Style familiarity first. As I said these questions don't come up often. I can't remebr the last they did.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Hai-Etlik

I'm trying to make sure I understand how all the perk limit rules work together and ended up with some questions.

While there is a limit on player-assigned Quirks (mostly for playability and play balance reasons), no such limits exist for Perks. Except for point cost, they work like any other advantage.

The 1 perk per 25 character points rule is a suggestion more than a requirement. The GM can strictly enforce this rule for perks which are part of racial or martial arts style templates or ignore it as they wish.

My own opinion is that:

Perks acquired as part of a racial or style template shouldn't be counted against perk limits. They're part of a package, usually added to get the package to a nice round number, as opposed to being selected on their own by the player.

Points in relevant perks apply towards minimum point cost requirements for other traits just like points in skills, techniques or advantages. Yes, points in perks count towards the total number of perks you can buy.

It's legitimate for a GM to limit the number of Style Familiarity, Combat or Magic perks a starting character can begin with, especially for a Dungeon Fantasy type character. It's a holdover from the character class and level system from AD&D and similar games. Starting characters never have everything the player wants, since keeping the players hungry for experience points helps to drive the game's action.

GMs might also wish to withhold certain perks so they can later bestow them instead of experience points. "Congratulations, you've just defeated two ninjas from the Black Hand Society. You now have Style Familiarity (Black Hand Society Ninjitsu)."

Realistically, a martial artist who regularly fights against different stylists, a combat-optimized mage, or a specialist fighter character might have dozens of perks, but that's a decision for the GM to make.

• I'd assume perks that are part of racial templates or meta-traits representing things like morphology or cybernetics aren't counted against perk limits?
• Do Combat and Magic perks (both style and non-style) count against the 1/25 pt general perk limit or are they independent?
• Does Style Familiarity count against the appropriate non-style combat/magic perk limit (So you need 20 pt in combat skills before learning a style which seems wrong), the general perk limit, or is it outside the perk limits entirely?
• MA, TS, GF, and PU:2 all seem to describe overlapping components as affecting style perk count independently, if I have 2 styles with 10 points each in exclusive skills, and 10 points in shared skills, then each style has 20 points and gets 2 perks for 4 style perks total. T:MS says that the points in shared spells have to be divided up so in the same situation, one style gets 2 perks and the other gets 1 perk for 3 total. When dealing with styles that mix combat skills and magic like Death Fist in Martial Arts, should these rules follow the type of style (Death Fist is a combat style so it counts independently), or the type of component (Spells are counted only toward one style, skills count toward all styles). Or did I misunderstand and the same rules described in T:MS are meant to apply to all components of all styles?

[/QUOTE]

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by Hai-Etlik

I'm trying to make sure I understand how all the perk limit rules work together and ended up with some questions.

You mention a few specific campaign limits that show up in a few specific GURPS genre lines, so I'll answer from those genre lines as far as rules are concerned. Note that in general, 'generic' GURPS doesn't consider Perks to be 'powerful enough' to impose limits, but suggests a limit of no more than 1 Perk per 25 character points at Character start...

I'd assume perks that are part of racial templates or meta-traits representing things like morphology or cybernetics aren't counted against perk limits?

Correct. Meta-traits and Racial perks generally do not count against "perk limits".

Do Combat and Magic perks (both style and non-style) count against the 1/25 pt general perk limit or are they independent?

Yes, unless the genre treatment (or the rules the GM is using) state that the specific Perk limit count separately, or that there is no "general" Perk limit, all Perks count against whatever the "general" Perk limit is. Style Perks are almost* always a separate pool, and do not count against other Perk pools.

For instance, Dungeon Fantasy does not have "General Perks", it's Power-Ups are split into 4 categories: Combat, Caster, Utility, and Profession, and those categories do not overlap. Combat and Caster are both limited to 1 Perk per 20 points in skills, there are no Utility Perks, and the only limit to Profession Perks are the limits in each profession.

* At least in the three sources I read, all three treat Style Perks as their own category that doesn't count against other categories.

Does Style Familiarity count against the appropriate non-style combat/magic perk limit (So you need 20 pt in combat skills before learning a style which seems wrong), the general perk limit, or is it outside the perk limits entirely?

It's never specifically dealt with. Since the only functional limit to how many Style Familiarity Perks, you can have is how many styles the GM allows. I tend to treat it as a General Perk, however there is no real harm to treating it as a it's own special category that is outside regular limits.

But if you want, you could treat Style Perks as either Combat or Magical Perks as appropriate, or either if the Style is both.

MA, TS, GF, and PU:2 all seem to describe overlapping components as affecting style perk count independently, if I have 2 styles with 10 points each in exclusive skills, and 10 points in shared skills, then each style has 20 points and gets 2 perks for 4 style perks total.

Correct.

T:MS says that the points in shared spells have to be divided up so in the same situation, one style gets 2 perks and the other gets 1 perk for 3 total.

I'm not sure where your reading this, do you have a page #?

When dealing with styles that mix combat skills and magic like Death Fist in Martial Arts, should these rules follow the type of style (Death Fist is a combat style so it counts independently), or the type of component (Spells are counted only toward one style, skills count toward all styles). Or did I misunderstand and the same rules described in T:MS are meant to apply to all components of all styles?

Neither Martial Arts nor Thaumatology Magical Styles really deal in depth with "dual" art styles, personally I'd treat all components in a Style towards being able to buy the Style Perks.

For Death Fist, I'd say all style components count towards Style Perks (unfortunately the Style has no Magical Perks in it, though it could certainly use a few), the purely "combat" skills also count towards Combat Perks and the Spells count towards Magical Perks.

[Hai-Etlik]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

I'm not sure where your reading this, do you have a page #?

Thaumatology: Magic Styles, p. 21

The rules at that point are rather confusing and by themselves I would have interpreted them as meaning that the counts are independent like combat styles. The example following seems rather clear that the intent is that points toward shared spells only count toward the perk limit for one of the styles.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by Hai-Etlik

I'd assume perks that are part of racial templates or meta-traits representing things like morphology or cybernetics aren't counted against perk limits?

Perks have a count limit?

What supplement introduces count limits to perks?

I know a lot of people ignore the advice in the Basic Set, "No perk should provide wealth, social standing, or combat bonuses." I guess that supplements ignore this as well? Do they do so explicitly ("Even though the Basic Set says...")?

[Hai-Etlik]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

Perks have a count limit?

What supplement introduces count limits to perks?

I know a lot of people ignore the advice in the Basic Set, "No perk should provide wealth, social standing, or combat bonuses." I guess that supplements ignore this as well? Do they do so explicitly ("Even though the Basic Set says...")?

Perk limits were introduced in Martial Arts (p. 49). The other supplements providing for Styles (Tactical Shooting, Gun-Fu, and Thaumatology: Magical Styles) all use perk limits for combat or magical perks as well, and Power Ups-2: Perks also covers them and adds the idea of a general perk limit.

I found four perks that give a combat skill bonus: "Secret Style", "Drunken Fighting", "Ground Guard", and "Weapon Bond". Lots of others give reduced skill penalties in specific combat circumstances. There are also a few that give other kinds of combat bonus like ST, SM, or DR or combat related benefits other than a numeric bonus. Perks that give very specific forms of social standing (Citizenship, License, Courtesy Title, Hidden Status) are in Power-Ups 2 and Social Engineering. I couldn't find any reference from a supplement defining such perks to the rule you cite on B100. So it seems like that rule has been quietly relaxed.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by Hai-Etlik

Thaumatology: Magic Styles, p. 21

The rules at that point are rather confusing and by themselves I would have interpreted them as meaning that the counts are independent like combat styles. The example following seems rather clear that the intent is that points toward shared spells only count toward the perk limit for one of the styles.

Okay, I see what's going on here. The Style Perks are limit settings, not giving perks, but allowing up to so many based on points in the Style. The PC still needs to have enough points in Advantages/Skills/Spells to be able to get the Perks.

Looks like I've always read that wrong.