[Thaumatology] Divination as the Core of Magic

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

I'd be wary of the Insubstantial one, because it isn't just about not getting hit; there's the whole “I can't affect anything that's not also Insubstantial” thing going on. And the +100% Affects Substantial enhancement doesn't actually let you affect substantial things on its own; it merely gives you permission to buy and use abilities that do. Even with severe limitations on it, the result is unlikely to be cost-effective.

It's something I vaguely thought about, but not in enough detail. I pretty much put it in as an afterthought because the idea was there. I'm sure there's a better option for 'things tend to miss you, even if you don't know they're coming and they're not being aimed' (other than just using the Path/Book Magic system) but I'm not sure what. I recall someone writing up a variant of Obscure that instead of having Anti-Targeting or being Obscure to any sense was 'Obscure to projectiles,' which I found jarring.

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Other than that, this looks pretty solid. The only thing I'd add is that you might want to look at the optional rules for Spirit powers found in GURPS Powers — not because this is a spiritual power, but because those modifiers are designed with the sort of feel that a GURPS Horror “mancy” ought to have. I'm referring specifically to the Ritual Modifiers found on Powers page 178: Affecting Others, Consecration, Regalia, and Ritual Length.

Thanks. I'll try to look in Powers when getting to my copy is less inconvenient... or I'll just get it anyway.

[RyanW]

I've been thinking about a similar angle of magic, where the core of the style is understanding the flow of the universe and attuning yourself to it. But I also want some practical (but not overly flashy) "adventuring" magic that doesn't come at the end of a dedicated career of mysticism. Kind of "real magic requires years of study and meditation, but I could teach you a few tricks that would be useful in your travels"

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Varyon

The oathbreakers Aragorn got the assistance of (freeing them to depart the world) were stuck in Middle Earth; maybe Sauron bound the souls of the dead before they could depart by similar means (probably has to be done while the person is still alive) and then forced information out of their spirits? Or he spoke to the spirits of deceased... Others (elves, orcs, dwarves, ents, etc). Or he interrogated existing undead, like the Barrow-Wights. My point is, I don't think we can blame Tolkien for "Necromancers turn corpses into servants." Unless there's some bit I haven't read that has the Necromancer sending out undead servants to do his bidding (other than the Nazgul, at least, but I think Sauron avoided using those while he was the Necromancer), anyway.

They were cursed by a Numenorean King invoking his priestly powers which were applicable to them as his vassels. Aragorn the heir of the one who laid the curse, had the authority to be parole officer, so to speak. Both had legitimate authority (it was kind of like the Seal of Solomon).

Sauron could not alter the Gift of Men in defiance of Eru. He could however create illusions and do spells upon corpses.

[namada]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

Something that annoys me for pretty pedantic reasons is the use of '-mancy' in fiction...

You could go stupidly opposite & add "mancy" to everything... Stonemancy. Woodmancy. Ironmancy....

[Anders]

The Oathbreakers had sworn to fight Sauron, so fight Sauron they must. Aragorn doesn't relieve them of their Oaths, he allows them to fulfill it. Oaths in Middle-Earth are very serious business - you will be bound to your oath. Just look at the Sons of Fëanor and their kinslayings... all because of their Oath.

[dataweaver]

What does that have to do with using Divination as the core of a magic system?

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by RyanW

I've been thinking about a similar angle of magic, where the core of the style is understanding the flow of the universe and attuning yourself to it. But I also want some practical (but not overly flashy) "adventuring" magic that doesn't come at the end of a dedicated career of mysticism. Kind of "real magic requires years of study and meditation, but I could teach you a few tricks that would be useful in your travels"

The 'branches off from Serendipity or Visualization' idea probably works with 'practical without being very flashy.'

Originally Posted by dataweaver

What does that have to do with using Divination as the core of a magic system?

Not a lot, IMHO, but it could fit a thread on Oath Magic if anyone wants to start one.

[Dalillama]

]

Originally Posted by namada

You could go stupidly opposite & add "mancy" to everything... Stonemancy. Woodmancy. Ironmancy....

Geomancy is a well-established term already, Feng Shui being the best known modern form, and has been used by fantasy authors to mean earth/stone magic generally; I read a series in the 90s that went Pyromancer, Geomancer, Aeromancer, Aquamancer.
I've also encountered Xylomancy and Ferromancy.

[dataweaver]

Geomancy and Pyromancy, as actual “mancies” and not merely “control the elements of Earth and Fire” notions that some use them as, are potentially quite interesting: for the former, I heartily recommend reading the New Magical Arts in GURPS Thaumatology: Urban Magics: Lapidism is the art of drawing magic out of gemstones; as well, Geomancy is mentioned under Urban Divination and also references the Sacred Architecture and Ley Line Spells entries, as well as a reference to dowsing in all but name.

Note that Pyromancy doesn't actually feature anything about controlling flames, nor are its uses particularly focused on fire-related phenomena: you can use Pyromancy to scry about just about any subject matter you can think of. That said, I could see something vaguely analogous to Lapidism for it, but for flammable materials rather than gemstones: you decide what sort of magic you're after to determine which materials to burn, and then activate the magical effect by burning them.

Continuing the elemental theme, Lecanomancy is the method of divination that features using water as a medium. Again, it's not really about controlling water as it is about using water as a focus. That said, I could see devising a “Hydromancy” that starts out with Lecanomancy, but expands from there into a cousin of Geomancy that focuses more on waterways than on land formations and architecture: rivers, streams, lakes, waterfalls, and irrigation systems would all be suitable matters for it to deal with, and Ley Lines that follow such waterways would be an interesting notion to explore.

Finally, “Aeromancy” could be viewed as a sibling to Astrology: according to GURPS Magic (p.108), Astrology technically deals not just with heavenly bodies such as the sun, moon, stars, planets, and comets, but also the weather. Typically, the weather part of it tends to be given second-class status; but I could see an Aeromancy specialty that makes the weather its primary focus. By contrast, Plato generally viewed the heavens themselves as consisting of a fifth element, or Quintessence; and as such, you might be better separating Aeromancy off from Astrology entirely, with the former dealing with the weather and the latter dealing with the stellar phenomena.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Continuing the elemental theme, Lecanomancy is the method of divination that features using water as a medium. Again, it's not really about controlling water as it is about using water as a focus. That said, I could see devising a “Hydromancy” that starts out with Lecanomancy, but expands from there into a cousin of Geomancy that focuses more on waterways than on land formations and architecture: rivers, streams, lakes, waterfalls, and irrigation systems would all be suitable matters for it to deal with, and Ley Lines that follow such waterways would be an interesting notion to explore.

Finally, “Aeromancy” could be viewed as a sibling to Astrology: according to GURPS Magic (p.108), Astrology technically deals not just with heavenly bodies such as the sun, moon, stars, planets, and comets, but also the weather. Typically, the weather part of it tends to be given second-class status; but I could see an Aeromancy specialty that makes the weather its primary focus. By contrast, Plato generally viewed the heavens themselves as consisting of a fifth element, or Quintessence; and as such, you might be better separating Aeromancy off from Astrology entirely, with the former dealing with the weather and the latter dealing with the stellar phenomena.

It seems to me that the air focused abilities are akin to Chinese ideas of qi. Note that air is not an element in China; air is rather the animating principle that flows through all of the elements.

Though there are also analogies between the flow of water and the flow of qi; I think such inform feng shui, which might be a version of the kind of divination you're looking for.