Gurps says: don't learn karate

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by seycyrus

And yet this really never happens. In reality, the grappler has much more control of the grappled than the other way around.

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This +1

Originally Posted by seycyrus

Perhaps, you misread me, but I agree with you, basically because most grapplers (especially BJJ) train against strikers who are striking against them. Most boxers generally don't train against the grapple.

Ah Ok I when you said latter I thought you were saying Boxing had the most real-life application over BJJ etc

Originally Posted by seycyrus

Certainly. The key point is that folks who consistently train against fully resisting opponents (striking or grappling) ALWAYS have the edge against people who do not.

Yes definitely agree with that, and I'll add by it very nature grappling training goes heavy on resisting opponents

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Varyon

A good grapple shouldn't leave the target in a position to grab or strike anything sensitive, and even if you can't restrain their limbs sufficiently to prevent that, you should be able to leverage your grip on them to spoil their attempts. Technical Grappling allows characters to Parry the target they're grappling, even if both their arms (and both their legs for that matter) are occupied, for this very reason.

Of course, a grappler who is used to sports wrestling, where the foe isn't allowed to gouge the eyes or bite the ear or whatever, is going to be at a disadvantage in a no-rules street fight when their foe attempts to do just that.

Again agree with this

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by kenclary

Training tends to beat no training, right up until it's someone way bigger/stronger (but enough of a training gap can make up for a strength gap).

Sure, grapplers tend to win against strikers in one-on-one sports...except when they don't. Even Ronda Rousy quit the UFC after getting out-struck two fights in a row...

In a RPG-type combat, where there are multiple combatents and all that, even if we let everyone be unarmed...striking is a better idea when the character is a novice. Strike hard, strike fast, keep moving. If you've got the skill to do it reliably and quickly, grappling stuff is great...but you're not gonna try to pin and submit someone. It's going to be a throw (preferably to land them on their head, to get a stun) or failing that a takedown, but regardless, you'll want to be standing afterwards. Or maybe a quick arm wrench or something, to (try to) take an opponent out of the fight. Submission and choking is probably too slow, unless you think you can use one opponent as some sort of hostage.

I think a problem is we tend think of submission holds that threaten breaking or tearing of joints as slow things, because in competitions their primary goal is being used to demonstrate superiority and apply pain to make the opponent to give in. i.e. it's pretty frowned upon to go instantly 100% with an arm bar or kimura or what ever even if you can because the goal is (generally) not to actaully break joints in competition but to make the other guy submit

We also tend to see them being done by a skilled grappler on other skilled grappler who can defend against them better than most, which makes it slower and harder to put them into effect

In reality you just finish the move* without pausing to see if the opponent will give up although yes you do have to get to a position to apply it first which isn't instant!




*Ok so you don't necessarily want to end every physical confrontation by potentially doing long term injury to you opponents limb, even if you can. context is important!

[kenclary]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

In reality you just finish the move* without pausing to see if the opponent will give up although yes you do have to get to a position to apply it first which isn't instant!

You still end up grappled on the ground, instead of on your feet ready to move, which is tactically unsound in real combat. Though it works fine for "hold that angry dude down while all the bystanders gawk."

(This doesn't mean that sports can't be good training, just noting that "standard" grappling/wrestling dogma about fights is hyper-focused on winning bouts.)

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by kenclary

You still end up grappled on the ground, instead of on your feet ready to move, which is tactically unsound in real combat. Though it works fine for "hold that angry down while all the bystanders gawk."

(This doesn't mean that sports can't be good training, just noting that "standard" grappling/wrestling dogma about fights is hyper-focused on winning bouts.)

As I said earlier I agree with this in principle, but when it comes to situational awareness and freedom of response. I'll take having finished the fight by breaking the chap's arm or knee than continuing to fight with strikes even If I'm standing up all the time (also one can grapple standing up even if it does give les options)

And as I also said IMO it's pretty moot anyway because IME the longer the fight goes on for the more likely you end up grappling or even on the floor anyway even if you not a super grappler trying to get there.

[Gollum]

I perfectly do agree on the fact that good grapplers are able to avoid exposing their eyes, groin or throat to dirty strikes. But it requires a high level of training, because such strikes are forbidden in all sports, including MMA and the likes.

On the other hand, I also know from my own training that when someone is grappled, it’s very hard for him to break free. Indeed, when grappled, the natural reflex is to focus all your effort on the grappled limb. Using your free limbs to do something else also requires a high level of training.

Dogs that are grappled by the tail systematically try to bite the hand that hold their tail … unless they are trained to do something else. In which case they become very dangerous.

So, in real combat, grapples can be very surprising because, most often, the opponent don’t know how to react (that’s why we also learn to grapple in my karate style). But we always do it with a very important warning: when you grapple someone, immediately do something else (break the joint, punch with the other hand or kick, make fall …). Brief, don’t give the opponent any opportunity to try something because it is as dangerous for you as it is for him.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Gollum

I perfectly do agree on the fact that good grapplers are able to avoid exposing their eyes, groin or throat to dirty strikes. But it requires a high level of training, because such strikes are forbidden in all sports, including MMA and the likes.

I bet with proper training you could even angle it so that your chin blocks your neck from frontal attacks, ie if someone was shooting a linear (non-wrapping) attack it should have to go through the jaw to hit the neck.

Probably something along the lines of http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/Rolepla...d-Defense.html might work except I'd want it to be penalties (or even impossibilities) to hit certain parts at certain angles, in exchange for bonus to hit the interposed parts.

It's a big different from Wheatley's CD rules which focus on the active defense bonuses/penalties. I'm thinking more of a passive effect which is direction-based.