Can I have some help understanding ritual path spell effects?

[Boyboy180]

So, I've read that some "effects" of a spell don't need to be paid for but I don't know how far it goes.

I've read that using strengthen body or destroy body to alter stats (AKA: Using lesser strengthen body to give +30% strength) doesn't require altered stats as it's built in to the strengthen body effect.

Does this also go for damage?
If I was doing a lesser destroy body effect to do 2d damage in a setting where that was normal hand-held weapon damage, would I not need to add extra mana for damage? Additionally could I then add more damage on top of that even without a greater effect?

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Boyboy180

So, I've read that some "effects" of a spell don't need to be paid for but I don't know how far it goes.

I've read that using strengthen body or destroy body to alter stats (AKA: Using lesser strengthen body to give +30% strength) doesn't require altered stats as it's built in to the strengthen body effect.

Does this also go for damage?
If I was doing a lesser destroy body effect to do 2d damage in a setting where that was normal hand-held weapon damage, would I not need to add extra mana for damage? Additionally could I then add more damage on top of that even without a greater effect?

For the most part in RPM you get what you pay for. Your first example would require a spell effect and altered traits to lower ST. Damage dealt with a spell always requires the Damage modifier - even if it seems like it shouldn't. For example, conjuring an anvil over someone's head still requires damage even though you rolled to create it.

[Boyboy180]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

For the most part in RPM you get what you pay for. Your first example would require a spell effect and altered traits to lower ST. Damage dealt with a spell always requires the Damage modifier - even if it seems like it shouldn't. For example, conjuring an anvil over someone's head still requires damage even though you rolled to create it.

Sorry, I only partially understood your reply so I need to ask more specifically.

The first example DOES need altered trait? I thought in that example it wouldn't because because it was part of the "Assumed effect."
Or do you mean that if you wanted to do a "Destroy body" lowering of ST it would need altered traits but a buff wouldn't?
I thought that you weren't meant to use altered traits if it was already part of the base description of the effect?

I understand the damage thing easily enough though, thank you.

[sir_pudding]

Attribute buffs/debuffs require altered traits. See GURPS Thaumatology: Ritual Path Magic pg. 16 "or lowers attributes or characteristics" and p. 17 "or increases attributes or characteristics ".

[Refplace]

The way I read and handle it is buy the verb or spell effect (Create, Strengthen, etc.) and buy anything covered in the supplement, including Altered Traits, Damage, etc.
You can skip things not explicitly called out if they are minor.

[sir_pudding]

There are the exceptions, like transformations that aren't under the target's control not requiring Altered Traits.

How To Be a GURPS GM: Ritual Path Magic has a systemic way to tell if Altered Traits are required or not.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Boyboy180

The first example DOES need altered trait? I thought in that example it wouldn't because because it was part of the "Assumed effect."
Or do you mean that if you wanted to do a "Destroy body" lowering of ST it would need altered traits but a buff wouldn't?
I thought that you weren't meant to use altered traits if it was already part of the base description of the effect?

So think of it like this. A spell effect (e.g., Destroy Body) enables the use of a modifier (e.g., Altered Traits, Lowered ST) - you can't have a spell that's just modifiers. You must have a spell effect(s) as well. In addition to that you might need to call the spell Lesser (if it is within bounds for the Path skill's minor effects) or Greater (if it isn't). So a spell that reduces ST might look like this:

Lesser Enfeeble (Attribute)
Spell Effects: Lesser Destroy Body or Lesser Destroy Mind.
Inherent Modifiers: Altered Trait, Decreased (Attribute).
Greater Effects Multiplier: 0 (x1)

This spell grants the subject a -3 penalty to ST, DX, IQ, or HT for the next 10 minutes. This spell is called “Enfeeble ST,” “Enfeeble DX,” “Enfeeble IQ,” or “Enfeeble HT” depending on the penalty bestowed.

Typical Casting: Lesser Destroy Body or Lesser Destroy Mind (5) + Altered Trait, -3 to DX or IQ or ST or HT (6 or 12) + Duration, 10 minutes (1) + Subject Weight, 300 lbs. (3). 15 energy (15x1) (for ST or HT) or 21 energy (21x1) (for DX or IQ).

Originally Posted by Boyboy180

I understand the damage thing easily enough though, thank you.

Excellent.