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Old 11-12-2021, 01:10 PM   #1
hcobb
 
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacheco, California
Default Entangling weapons fix

The entangling weapons are just too good at tripping foes up compared to shield rushes and unarmed combat throws. Here's a minimal fix.

ITL 112: Bola gets standard ITL 121 modifiers to hit body parts, -4 for legs, -4 for weapon arm, -6 for head, etc.

ITL 113: Lasso gets the same ITL 121 modifiers to hit body parts. Lassoing the body doesn't knock the foe down. If the lassoed foe wants to move away from the lasso next turn they need to win a contest of ST. The lasso wielder may combine ST with others. On the next turn the lasso wielder may attempt an automatic hit shield rush against the target, combining ST with others as they see fit. Once the target is knocked over they can be dragged along.

ITL 113: Net does 1d-3 damage and impacts the target as if they had been hit with a Rope spell.
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Old 11-12-2021, 05:41 PM   #2
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
Default Re: Entangling weapons fix

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
The entangling weapons are just too good at tripping foes up compared to shield rushes and unarmed combat throws. Here's a minimal fix.

ITL 112: Bola gets standard ITL 121 modifiers to hit body parts, -4 for legs, -4 for weapon arm, -6 for head, etc.

ITL 113: Lasso gets the same ITL 121 modifiers to hit body parts. Lassoing the body doesn't knock the foe down. If the lassoed foe wants to move away from the lasso next turn they need to win a contest of ST. The lasso wielder may combine ST with others. On the next turn the lasso wielder may attempt an automatic hit shield rush against the target, combining ST with others as they see fit. Once the target is knocked over they can be dragged along.

ITL 113: Net does 1d-3 damage and impacts the target as if they had been hit with a Rope spell.
There's always a tension between game balance and "realism". I can buy your suggestions for bola and lasso, though I don't plan on implementing them yet.

But your suggestion for net doesn't work too well for me. The immediate effect would be to lower MA by half and DX by 2, with greater DX penalties on the subsequent turns. Thus, the target is still free to (slowly) move about and to attack, though somehow the net progressively tightens (or something) about him so that his odds of hitting become lower each turn. The average person will fall to the floor about half a minute after the net hits him.

It just don't sound right to me. It might work for game balance, perhaps, but the effects are just kind of odd for a heavy, barbed net.
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Old 11-12-2021, 08:29 PM   #3
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Durham, NC
Default Re: Entangling weapons fix

Hi Henry,
I like your net is like rope solution. Immediate DX -2 and it gets worst the longer you ignore it. I think that covers how nets were better than the rules (it is less likely to cause an immediate knock down than say a bola, but has different traits).

As much as I have griped about how bolas are in the game, I will have to disagree with the DX minus approach. Bolas spread out when you throw them and then when it encounters something grabs & wraps it. The bottom line is bolas are actually easier to hit your target than throw other things. It is like the target (say the legs) are as wide as the spinning diameter of the bola (say 6 feet).

The crazy thing about bolas is that grab affect happens if there it hits anything between you and your target. Throwing it in the woods nearly always gets caught on a tree or tree limb. In combat, you would need to have a wide path to your target. Somehow this should be simulated in the rules.

My 2 cents.

BTW, while I have made and tried bolas, I have not tried using a lasso. So, I cannot say how it compares.
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Old 11-12-2021, 08:33 PM   #4
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
Default Re: Entangling weapons fix

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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
But your suggestion for net doesn't work too well for me. [...]

It just don't sound right to me. It might work for game balance, perhaps, but the effects are just kind of odd for a heavy, barbed net.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
Hi Henry,
I like your net is like rope solution. Immediate DX -2 and it gets worst the longer you ignore it.
Well, it takes all kinds, I guess.
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Old 11-16-2021, 10:00 AM   #5
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Entangling weapons fix

i think the Bola and Lasso house rules are quite sensible, though I'm undecided as to whether or not I'll use them. These are fun gear to have on the table in an encounter, and if their main uses effectively disappear because no one can make them work with reasonable chance of success then they will just gather dust on the page rather than being part of the game. I understand they seem like wonder weapons in some thought exercises, but I just haven't seen that play out in practice so I worry this is a case of a solution looking for a problem.
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Old 11-16-2021, 10:47 AM   #6
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Entangling weapons fix

Note: Neither of the the RAW descriptions of the Lasso or Whip make explicit statements about DX adjustments for aiming at various body parts, so I would say the default is that they are subject to aiming penalties, just like any other weapon. Thus, parts of what are suggested above could be interpreted as already part of the core rules. For that matter, the Bola is an ambiguous case: an adjustment is given for a head shot and it differs from the standard adjustment for most other weapons. On the other hand, the statement about aiming at the wing of a flyer implies that the wing aiming penalty is -2, which is standard for other weapons. The only other thing said about the bola and lasso (and, by implication whip, which mostly follows lasso rules for entangling) is that 'attacks are of necessity aimed'. Which is ambiguous; it could mean the fact that that they are aimed is cooked into their standard stats and effects, or that their effects assume you took an aimed shot and suffered its penalty.

All of this is sufficiently garbled and ambiguous that I think any table ruling will involve GM judgement re. intent, and a very reasonable reading is that ALL attacks aimed at anything other than the body incur an aiming penalty, which is the standard one other than a Bola targeting the head (-4 instead of -6). Thus, the only one of these three weapons that does something special without having to pay an aiming penalty is the lasso looped around the body, which puts you on the ground automatically. Using the house rule above (a ST contest like a shield bash) is tempting for this case, though I'd say a successful leg lasso or whip hit should just trip you.
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Old 11-16-2021, 11:11 AM   #7
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Entangling weapons fix

Hitting a figure with an arrow at close range is a 3-D problem. Aiming the bow in 2 dimensions and accounting for the target moving left or right.


A lasso needs to arrive at the right 3-D spot and account for the target moving in 2 dimensions along the ground. Hence a 5-D problem.
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Old 11-16-2021, 11:22 AM   #8
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
Default Re: Entangling weapons fix

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
i think the Bola and Lasso house rules are quite sensible, though I'm undecided as to whether or not I'll use them. These are fun gear to have on the table in an encounter, and if their main uses effectively disappear because no one can make them work with reasonable chance of success then they will just gather dust on the page rather than being part of the game. I understand they seem like wonder weapons in some thought exercises, but I just haven't seen that play out in practice so I worry this is a case of a solution looking for a problem.
I definitely found the bola overpowered. Thrown Weapons is a prerequisite, which means that one can throw a bola every turn. If we allow only two on the belt and one in the hands, that's three bolas available (and RAW allows up to six on the belt!).

I've house-ruled away the "ready-and-throw" option for bolas. That seems to make them still quite good, but acceptably so in my book.
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Old 11-16-2021, 01:32 PM   #9
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Entangling weapons fix

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Hitting a figure with an arrow at close range is a 3-D problem. Aiming the bow in 2 dimensions and accounting for the target moving left or right.


A lasso needs to arrive at the right 3-D spot and account for the target moving in 2 dimensions along the ground. Hence a 5-D problem.
it's a 3D problem but you only need to solve it by getting the target to overlap a several-foot-diameter projectile!
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Old 11-16-2021, 01:34 PM   #10
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Entangling weapons fix

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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I definitely found the bola overpowered. Thrown Weapons is a prerequisite, which means that one can throw a bola every turn. If we allow only two on the belt and one in the hands, that's three bolas available (and RAW allows up to six on the belt!).

I've house-ruled away the "ready-and-throw" option for bolas. That seems to make them still quite good, but acceptably so in my book.
Do you enforce aiming penalties? That might reduce chances of success enough that you don't need to impose further restrictions.
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