A puzzle regarding picking up weapons

[phiwum]

Consider a guy who does not have Thrown Weapons skill and suppose he has a handful of daggers he likes to throw. The usual method will result in one dagger thrown every other turn, since he must ready a dagger on one turn and throw it the next.

On the other hand, he could use the following strategy: Walk around with a handful of daggers. At the beginning of a fight, drop the daggers. Each turn, use the rule that one can pick up a dagger during movement for 3MA. Such weapons are ready immediately (ITL 104, Actions during Movement) and 3MA is less than a half move, so in the action phase, he can throw his dagger.

Now, it's pretty clear that the rule for picking up weapons during movement is theatrical partly (dash a few hexes, grabbing a weapon and striking) and partly sensible (why should I have to stop, pick it up and then continue? That's not how movement works). It's just unfortunate that, as written, it means that it's faster to pick up and throw something from the ground than it is to pull it from your belt and throw it.

Again, yes, Thrown Weapons changes that, but that's not really the point. Someone unskilled in Thrown Weapons shouldn't be able to scoop a dagger and throw it faster than he could pull it from his belt and throw it.

I've not seen this exploit in play and it is easy to knock off an ad hoc house rule to fix it, but I thought I'd mention it here.

[hcobb]

I allow ready for 3 MA, which Thrown Weapons avoids.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by phiwum

... use the rule that one can pick up a dagger during movement for 3MA. Such weapons are ready immediately (ITL 104, Actions during Movement) and 3MA is less than a half move, so in the action phase, he can throw his dagger.

That's clearly a problem with the revised rule. There was no problem with the original wording that said the item would be ready on the next turn.

[phiwum]

Ah, that explains a lot, Shostak.

I was focusing on Thrown Weapons, but the same applied for melee weapons, too. If it's on your belt, it takes a turn to ready. If it's on the floor, it takes 3MA to ready.

[Skarg]

There are a few other differences, such as:

* In a fight where you get to start with weapons ready, you could just start with two daggers in hand.

* In fight that starts with your weapons unready, it's not a free action to get all your sheathed knives on the floor.

* Thrown Weapons lets you ready a thrown weapon while engaged. To use 3 MA to ready something, you need your MA, which engagement cuts to 1.

* Trying to fight using a pile of knives on the floor, means you need to be based at/around that pile of knives, which not only takes time to set up, but takes time/MA to get each knife and to move to/from. It's not a very effective tactical position.

* Anyone else nearby can also pick up your knives for 3 MA.

So, while it might also make sense to rule in some other limits (maybe just a -1 or -2 DX penalty for throwing a weapon you just picked up off the floor that turn?), like most of the other silly tactics that might seem effective when one first thinks about it, it won't tend to work well in actual play on a hex map.

[phiwum]

These differences are a good observation, Skarg.

To be honest, I wasn't too worried about the strategy of dropping a pile of knives at the outset, but the oddity that a dropped weapon could be readied more easily than a weapon on the belt. Does that seem right or not?

Well, in defense of the new rules, when you grab a weapon from the ground, you grab it from the handle (or blade, for a thrown dagger) pretty quickly. When you draw a weapon from the belt, perhaps it takes more time. A sheathed sword might not be as easy to ready as a dropped sword, I guess.

I do think maybe a DX penalty for the turn one picks up a weapon (for throwing or melee) is fairly reasonable.

[Axly Suregrip]

I am with Phinum on this. It just does not make sense that a combatant is able to use a weapon picked up from the ground more easily than one draw from the sheath. A sheath that is presumably placed for quick and easy access.

A DX penalty is still more than gracious to the player wishing to do so.

[DeadParrot]

If a character was preparing to defend a fixed spot, an exploit of the 'pick up weapon' thing would be to layout on the top of a defensive wall or shelf an array of daggers, axes, etc for throwing. Then when combat begins, each round just pick up one during movement(not going anywhere anyway), and throw during action phase.

[phiwum]

I don't know why I hadn't thought of this simple example earlier, but something Shostak posted tonight made me think a bit.

Suppose a fighter has a readied sword, say, and an unreadied crossbow. He sees an opportunity to get one shot off with the crossbow. Let's suppose he has MA 10 for this example.

Option 1: Drop the sword and ready the crossbow on turn 1, moving up to two hexes while doing so. Turn 2, fire the crossbow. Turn 3, drop the crossbow, pick up the sword for MA 3 and move up to two hexes and attack (if possible).

Option 2: Sheathe the sword and ready the crossbow on turn 1, again moving up to two hexes while doing so. Turn 2, fire the crossbow. Turn 3, unready the crossbow and draw the sword, moving up to two hexes but NOT ATTACKING. He may attack on turn 4.

That's a pretty screwy set of options.

[Skarg]

What if, yes, you can pick a weapon up off the ground for 3 MA, and yes, it becomes ready that turn... but you cannot attack that same turn, because the 3 MA option is only available when using option (a) MOVE?