[Basic] Advantage of the Week: Resistant

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by whswhs

When I came up with Immunity to Pain, my intention was to use it for things like steam locomotives that have no nerves, or for weird extradimensional creatures.

You didn't come up with Immunity to Pain. PK came up with it. It's on p. 10 of GURPS Powers: Divine Favor..

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

You didn't come up with Immunity to Pain. PK came up with it. It's on p. 10 of GURPS Powers: Divine Favor..

I hadn't realized that. I remember coming up with the idea of Immunity to Pain when I was writing Powers: The Weird and working out the implication; I don't remember looking at Powers: Divine Favor when I was doing so. I see that it is present in DF and that that was published first, but I'm pretty sure I invented it independently for TW—and came up with almost exactly the same definition, but then once you have the paradigm of Resistant/Immune there's one clear way to apply it.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I hadn't realized that. I remember coming up with the idea of Immunity to Pain when I was writing Powers: The Weird and working out the implication; I don't remember looking at Powers: Divine Favor when I was doing so. I see that it is present in DF and that that was published first, but I'm pretty sure I invented it independently for TW—and came up with almost exactly the same definition, but then once you have the paradigm of Resistant/Immune there's one clear way to apply it.

No, you were told. I was in that playtest. You DID expand on what it could do as far as pain penalties and such.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

No, you were told. I was in that playtest. You DID expand on what it could do as far as pain penalties and such.

Was I? I'd forgotten that. I remember worrying when I came up with it whether my extrapolation of what you got for Immunity would be acceptable, so I'm thinking I may not have read about it before then.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Was I? I'd forgotten that. I remember worrying when I came up with it whether my extrapolation of what you got for Immunity would be acceptable, so I'm thinking I may not have read about it before then.

Yeah. It happens. And no. We playtested that particular bit in one of my games. It worked just fine.

[kirbwarrior]

It's come up a LOT... as Immunity. I'm not sure someone has taken any version of it at +3 or +8. Most of the time it just makes more sense to buy something like HT13+ or Will18+ to fit the concept instead of Resistant. Various ones that have come up:
- Metabolic Hazards. I actually find this to be very slightly overpriced. I may houserule this to 25pts, I haven't decided yet. Probably doesn't help that disease has not once come up in 4th edition with me as a GM. Very common to have at least one species option with this, mostly by accident.
- Magic
- Psionics
- Poison. For some reason this was an elf racial trait at one point.
- Afflictions [30]. This one is extremely meta and doesn't really make sense in universe but is priced fairly.
- Critical Failures [15]. This is a variation of Luck (which is in practice better because you can use it for more than stopping fumbles) that makes it so you don't critically fail, other people's critical failures don't happen to affect you (such as a friend accidentally stabbing the wrong person), and recently added opponent's critical successes are changed to successes only against you. Like the above, extremely meta.
- Age [5]. Depending on the campaign I've dropped this to perk level immunity or even just made it free. But I've had enough PCs actively use this one (far more than the rest of this list combined!) that it being default 5pts is usually best.
- A specific attack of this character [1]. This is mostly for self-propagating attacks like chain lightning but there are other times when an attack is very clearly likely to backfire because of the rules but not flavor and it doesn't make sense to use a modifier to stop that.
- Pain. 20? 30? It's been both, I think it's official somewhere, but I'm just going off memory right now. Certain character ideas require this, otherwise people just take High Pain Threshold.
- Death [30]. This stops both any effects that cause death (such as Affliction: Heart Attack) and you automatically succeed death checks for going into negative HP. We've nicknamed this "Unkillable 0"
- Unconsciousness [30]. Same as Death basically, but with the further effect of helping make a character go from "effectively invulnerable" to "actually invulnerable". Pretty sure this isn't RAW, but Kromm recommended it at one point for Unkillable 2 and I haven't seen it be an issue.
- Nanomachines. Can't remember the cost or full context, but basically it was a way to represent getting all the upsides of nanomachines without ever having to even think about the downsides.
- Disadvantages [30]. Basically Taboo Trait: Disadvantages (you can't start with them, you can't gain them). Literally only one character has had this and it was required to represent the idea correctly. It was a minor NPC so it being so meta wasn't anything other than silly.
- Virtual [30]. This counts as basically Omniresistant (affecting anything Resistant could possibly affect) but only for a virtual world (as per Modular Abilities). While it might be more RAW to take Omniresistant and slap on -50%, in practice it's so much weaker because the amount of things the virtual world can actually do to a person and how often it comes up is quite rare, even in campaigns that take place in VR 50+% of the time.
- Omniresistant. Only in concept. There's a fair cost for this in comparison to HT and Will, but I haven't found it yet. And I've only given it casual thoughts because the kind of character who would have it wouldn't be in any campaign I've been a part of. Weaker versions of this, especially based on the other attributes, likely has a sane cost. One player talked about DX for any situation where they resist with DX but not use it for something.
- Specific Person. I think this is 5pts? Can't remember where I saw that. I've seen PCs take this for an Enemy to explain how they aren't already dead by that Enemy's hand. And vice versa, an Enemy that in a vacuum isn't too strong but undermines the PC so hard it goes up in tier for having this. I've also used this in one campaign for all the PCs as a very blatant "only you can defeat the mad god" because they're literally the only ones immune. Again, extremely meta, but at least is has in universe explanations.

On the note of that last one, sometimes it requires Cosmic to actually function as intended. A god of disease can infect a car because Ignores Defenses gets around Resistant. That's how you get werecars ;)

One last one that isn't technically Immunity: Heat and/or Cold. I can't remember where I found this, but someone changed Temperature Tolerance to have a max cost that happens to line up with Immunity. It's still a leveled trait (where every level is better than the last), but for 15 points you are immune to one and 30 immune to both.

I used to have a fun house rule: If the FIRST time you roll to resist something very specific and you critically succeed, you freely get the Immunity perk as per PU2 p11. I did this before 4th edition and in other systems. I wouldn't say I've dropped this house rule, but it just hasn't come up in years.

EDIT: Of course I remember one right after I post. One character I made took Immunity to Empathy. That doesn't actually work in the rules, but saying that others' Empathy will never give me away was costed at 5pts by the GM and handwaved as Immunity.

[Pursuivant]

Very cool list of ideas.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

- Death [30]. This stops both any effects that cause death (such as Affliction: Heart Attack) and you automatically succeed death checks for going into negative HP. We've nicknamed this "Unkillable 0"

- Unconsciousness [30]. Same as Death basically, but with the further effect of helping make a character go from "effectively invulnerable" to "actually invulnerable". Pretty sure this isn't RAW, but Kromm recommended it at one point for Unkillable 2 and I haven't seen it be an issue.

I can see the logic of Immunity (Death, Unconsciousness), but how do these traits interact with Hard to Kill and Hard to Subdue?

It seems like there's 100% overlap unless Resistant gives a bonus to non-HT-based rolls to resist Death or Unconsciousness.

Also, why 30 points for Immunity? Given that HTK & HTS are basically HT+n (Limitation: Only to resist Death/Stun rolls, -80%), +9 to HTK or HTS would top out at 18 points. If you accept HTK or HTS +10 as being "Immunity" cost would be 20 points, with maybe a +5 point bonus tacked on for being immune to CF as well as ordinary rolls. I could see adding a +10 point surcharge for immunity to such common threats, however.

FWIW, Resistant (Physical Stun or Death) +3 comes in at 10 points, vs. 6 points for HTK or HTS 3, while the +8 level comes in at 15 points vs. 16 points for HTK or HTS 8.

Mind you, I'm not trying to start an argument. Intuitively, I'd price Immunity (Death, Unconsciousness) at 30 points, too. I'm just interested in the logic you used to get there.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

I can see the logic of Immunity (Death, Unconsciousness), but how do these traits interact with Hard to Kill and Hard to Subdue?

It seems like there's 100% overlap unless Resistant gives a bonus to non-HT-based rolls to resist Death or Unconsciousness.

Also, why 30 points for Immunity? Given that HTK & HTS are basically HT+n (Limitation: Only to resist Death/Stun rolls, -80%), +9 to HTK or HTS would top out at 18 points. If you accept HTK or HTS +10 as being "Immunity" cost would be 20 points, with maybe a +5 point bonus tacked on for being immune to CF as well as ordinary rolls. I could see adding a +10 point surcharge for immunity to such common threats, however.

FWIW, Resistant (Physical Stun or Death) +3 comes in at 10 points, vs. 6 points for HTK or HTS 3, while the +8 level comes in at 15 points vs. 16 points for HTK or HTS 8.

Mind you, I'm not trying to start an argument. Intuitively, I'd price Immunity (Death, Unconsciousness) at 30 points, too. I'm just interested in the logic you used to get there.

That's basically why I put it there. I haven't changed it for a few reasons;
- Hard to Kill is not a straight bonus to survival. If you succeed only because of it, then you still pass out and appear dead. Resistant would be a straight bonus, and Immunity means you just shrug it off. One thing I might add is letting the character full on pass out as per Hard to Kill from death effects if they choose. This isn't acting, they are still fully unconscious as her Hard to Kill.
- Tiny thing is that Hard to Kill only affects rolls. Theoretically there are situations where death can occur without any roll being made. I'm a stickler against "Rocks fall, everyone dies", but some things mechanically might kill you without a roll and without being damage or injury. And who knows, the Death God's Fang might be a divine sword that kills without rolls or anything to even those who wield it.
- Hard to Subdue isn't as limited as Kill. But there are far more things capable of causing unconsciousness, and unlike Death this also covers FP damage. Plus, the most common reason for even taking this is for character to not be unconscious for a second if they die with Unkillable 2 or 3 and have more than Extreme regeneration.
- There's a similar argument for Magic Resistance. It covers a few extra things, but importantly Immunity doesn't stop welcome magic. If a spell can be resisted, you just decided if you resist it with no roll. That might not be exactly RAW, but not only is Magic kind of bizarre, rules-wise, but it seems to cover the intent of what Resistant is doing. And if there are any magical effects that aren't resisted but are otherwise covered by Resistant, well those get covered, too (I think a few alchemy things don't have resistance rolls, plus you can safely inhale troll blood steam!).

Part of me wants to change Immunity to Death to 25pts only because it's nicely half of Unkillable 1, but there's zero reason to actually do that XD. I'm entirely willing to change them to whatever makes more sense, I just slap 30 down for things that I assume will be a Big Deal and figure out later it's not as good because a lot of other Big Deal things are 30 (such as Metabolic Hazards, Powers, and Social).

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Hard to Kill is not a straight bonus to survival. If you succeed only because of it, then you still pass out and appear dead. Resistant would be a straight bonus, and Immunity means you just shrug it off.

So, arguably, HTK is Resistant (Death, Limitations: Accessibility (Not vs. death effects that don't allow dice rolls to resist), -10%; Nuisance Effect (Falls Unconscious on roll to avoid death which only succeeds because of levels of HTK), -30%).

I can't think of any type of sophistry which crams the point costs for Hard to Subdue into the price scheme for Resistant.

It's clear that both HTK and HTS were designed as severely limited forms of HT while Resistant/Immunity were ported over from GURPS 3E without comparing how equivalent levels of restricted attributes or secondary characteristics would work.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Part of me wants to change Immunity to Death to 25pts only because it's nicely half of Unkillable 1, but there's zero reason to actually do that XD. I'm entirely willing to change them to whatever makes more sense, I just slap 30 down for things that I assume will be a Big Deal and figure out later it's not as good because a lot of other Big Deal things are 30 (such as Metabolic Hazards, Powers, and Social).

That's more or less how I operate when pricing such things. Glad to have the reality check.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

It's clear that both HTK and HTS were designed as severely limited forms of HT while Resistant/Immunity were ported over from GURPS 3E without comparing how equivalent levels of restricted attributes or secondary characteristics would work.

I think it would have made the most sense to just bring all the other similar traits into Resistant and figure out a way to have more discrete levels of it. I'd be entirely on board with Resistant to Death or Unconsciousness as mundane (if possibly cinematic) traits with Immunity being Exotic. Then again, I'm also not sure if I like the +3/+8 breakdowns, it's kind of odd places for those prices to be. Who knows, maybe that's why I never bothered with anything under Immunity.

Of course, this would likely balloon Resistant to a whole page or more for various common examples, but that space is technically saved by removing those other traits *shrugs*.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

That's more or less how I operate when pricing such things. Glad to have the reality check.

I'm entirely okay with handwaving a quick cost for things and figuring out how I'm wrong later. Mostly because I'll find out I'm wrong later no matter how hard I work on it initially XD