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Old 04-14-2020, 09:49 PM   #31
kirbwarrior
 
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Default Re: Wealth > Status Pyramid Article

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
The usual real-world solution for capital-intensive professions is debt. Which means you can have a lot of stuff with relatively low net worth.
Even ignoring debt, the point is that you can have a lot of stuff with relatively low net worth. A good working vehicle already dropped in price the moment it left the lot. Without the right skills you'll lose out on selling your house. Realistically armor is fitted to a single person and wears down even after one battle.

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I was just thinking that 'settled lifestyle' gear would be really important playing a pre-post-apocalyptic game. You could have the PCs describe normal people with jobs and homes and gear, then throw the start of a zombie plague or the like at them. All the sudden the old junker car in the garage becomes really important.
That sounds like it could be a lot of fun. I'm imagining the PCs all neighbors and using their block to stave off disaster.

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Originally Posted by Kale View Post
Otherwise, if the PCs are going out as adventurers (aka murder hobos) I don't worry about equipment a whole lot as that isn't what the story is about necessarily. Sure you want your PCs to work to get better gear but the gear is just the reward at the end of the quest. In general if a PC wants something really fancy I get them to buy it as Signature Gear and discourage players from taking blanket high wealth levels unless their character's backstory would require it.
In a campaign like that, it might make sense to just straight ban Status and Wealth. I also like the DF rules (might have changed in DFRPG) where Wealth is both starting gear and your ability to unload gear into the money box. Cutting the price of Wealth in half and only applying it to starting money also works (in fact I do that for Signature Gear, I use the DFRPG rule of making it 1pt and you have to buy the gear with money).
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While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
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Old 04-14-2020, 10:52 PM   #32
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Default Re: Wealth > Status Pyramid Article

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
That's going to depend heavily on whether you're in a society where that kind of borrowing is available...
More generally, the way you start out in a capital intensive industry without being wealthy yourself is by using someone else's money. This could be debt, rental, work for hire, apprenticeship, promises of future benefits, or whatever, but something of the sort will exist.
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Old 04-15-2020, 08:35 AM   #33
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Default Re: Wealth > Status Pyramid Article

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I think the problem is trying to let the settled lifestyle inflate beyond its budget as a way to cover capital-intensive professions being situated at inadequate wealth levels.
I think we are both speaking to the same issue with different phrasing.
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Old 04-15-2020, 08:41 AM   #34
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Default Re: Wealth > Status Pyramid Article

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
I don't want to let realism get in the way.
Fair enough. I acknowledge the redundancy of my comments. For your needs, the same probably applies to much or all of the Low-Tech collection.
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Old 04-15-2020, 02:11 PM   #35
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Default Re: Wealth > Status Pyramid Article

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Fair enough. I acknowledge the redundancy of my comments. For your needs, the same probably applies to much or all of the Low-Tech collection.
I do fully admit, I haven't looked over Low-Tech loadouts. I just haven't had yet an issue where someone with a settled lifestyle got a significant boost of inventory compared to a non-settled lifestyle (having slightly better is fine).
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While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
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Old 04-16-2020, 02:35 AM   #36
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Default Re: Wealth > Status Pyramid Article

I will caveat this by saying my comments are restricted to TL2-4. It doesnt apply to anything else because I havent given it any thought.

I just made a "starting gear" kit that everyone gets. It includes daily wear clothing, a large pack OR chest (PC choice), eating utensils, a symbol OR jewelry, A couple pieces of simple armor (cloth or light leather), some sacks and jugs. All that kind of "OMG the zombies are attacking what can I grab to take with me" at Status0. The kit costs something like $100, which is far below market price (~90% discount) but it is intended to reflect stuff that everyone would/could have in "basic used quality".

I also require any PC that is not using the minor/2nd class citizen disadvantage to have a job skill at 14, this helps a lot with backstory and getting new players in the mindset of building a three dimensional char. I do allow the purchase of better/specialized equipment for a job at 50% price BUT you must have that skill at 14 minimum to be allowed that discount, additionally a "job" like soldier or merchant requires multiple skills at 14+ and a possible status cost. I want gear to be accessible, but its not free.

I have never had problems with people being disadvantaged at start, and the only time I heard a complaint was some one playing an "itinerant monk" complaining they didnt have enough coin to buy something outrageously out of character, during group session1. I asked him to close his eyes and visualize his character, now tell me where the coin came from and why he has it. I was ready to let him steal if from the collection plate, as it were, but I was also going to mod his sheet with some disads at the end of the session.

Other than this, I use starting wealth RAW for the TL.
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Old 04-16-2020, 10:21 AM   #37
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Default Re: Wealth > Status Pyramid Article

Now to address the discussion of debt vs assets in the "Modern" setting conversion.

I address this separately because I think that its more a vision of what we "think is reality" vs what IS reality. To use your example of the Suburban Neighborhood in a sudden Zombie attack. Its also worth pointing out that this is VERY setting dependent and that should be established by the GM before char generation. Suburban Columbus Ohio is very different to Suburban Nashville TN or San Fransico CA. Before assuming they are all the same, you need to know that they arent the same. You may have to scale the starting cash/wealth accordingly, and ask for backstories that legitimize something that doesnt fit. Your game is starting in Sipple MT, are all the players from Fergus County, Montana (population 3,000 and hours drive from a "real city"), are some from Abbeville, Georgia where a large percentage of people have guns, are some from Salt Lake where a lot of people are Mormon and prepping is a normal part of life, are some from NY City where urban living is a complete other skill set to farming rural Ohio... and its all relative to Sipple MT where your starting.

Now specific to what people would have, this is how I see it, and the RAW work fine with this view. Agree or not this is how I run my table.

True value of the asset - perceived or reality:
Value - In my OPINION using a snip of today's averages I as GM would estimate that fewer than 5% of Suburban families own significant portions of their "Assets". Houses are usually mortgaged to somewhere around 90% of actual sale value (remember the housing bubble of 2008, lots of people are still in houses they literally cant afford to sell because its negative value to this day). Cars are typically leased or at the very least under payments for another 2+ years. A three year old car is rarely worth what you have left in the payment.
Ownership - Until you OWN the house free and clear you cant count it as a full asset. Yes you might be able to sell your car today, but how much actual cash will you have? If you sell to a dealer he's going to clear the title first, so the bank gets paid before you get anything. Similar situation with the house. Selling to someone under the bridge downtown for cash isn't going to get you fair market value either cause they will eventually have to deal with the title holder if they are going to legitimately own it. If they don't care about such things I would say you will be lucky to walk away from the exchange with 20% of its value and your skin intact.

Asset conversion - perceived or reality:
Time to convert - You cant convert assets at that time into cash for equipment because you don't have time to, or if you do you have to consider things like actual time to get the cash. AKA selling a house, MINIMUM takes a month from the moment a buyer agrees to a price and the money is in your account, and that's in a perfect scenario where everyone is 100% available and motivated to make it happen in a month. If you want to convert a bullet proof vest where will you do that? you still have to find a buyer, no matter how good the price is (how many people still have bags full of worthless beanie babies they cant get rid of??).

Worth of owned assets -
Here's where you get into the 80/20 thing if you choose to use it... the couch, the TV, the pots and pans, the books, the book shelf, lamps, knives, beds, box of Christmas/Holiday ornaments, lawn mower, shovel, first aid kit (the box in the drawer of the bathroom, NOT the EMT jump bag). This is stuff that you could reasonably expect EVERY suburban house to have. EVERY one or a super high percentage at least. What are their actual value as an asset? I guess that depends on if your trying to block a door, build a fire or sell it in trade for a flame thrower.

Things that are NOT every house common and therefore I would charge the char for it:
Guns, no matter how common you think they are this is the modern equivalent to a sword and as such you need to have paid starting cash, paid points for inheritance, paid points for status, paid points for job skill/reason to have... your character should have paid in some way.

Occupation isnt a freebie for gear:
USA soldiers dont get to take their issue weapons home EVER, thats just not a thing, even an MP has to check it in at the end of shift. A US Army enlisted might have body armor, helmet etc... Swiss MILITIA gets to have a basic weapon but its not an automatic, thats a whole different thing and has zero application to the USA (I put that in only because I saw someone say something about it being part of a soldier job). A County Cop might have his gear but, this is also paid for in advantages at character generation because of Rank, Status, Occupation (skills or multiples of skills).

Merchant is similar.
First I would, as GM, require a certain amount of skills in Merchant (14), Finance or Accounting and Administration all minimum 11 (14 is just the number I have picked to represent a reasonable skill to make money as an occupation and representing a well trained worker). Each level of status bumps those points up a level as well (again house rule for character creation) so Status1 = Merch (15), Finance and admin (12). The more successful you are, the more developed your inventory and your ability to maximize profit. So sure you could say that your guy has access to a full inventory of his very own Plumbing store, but thats not status0 (I would say Status1), I might allow Wealth0 or Wealth1 with Debt mods, depending on the specific setting), and you would have had to invest some fairly considerable points in Merchant even if you min/max with talents etc. Assuming a generic 10 stats char, thats somewhere between 40 and 50 points spent at char generation to get that advantage of having "whats commonly available in a plumbing/hardware store".

As a GM Im ok with that, my games are usually started between 125 and 175 starting. When the generally accepted points to cash exchange is 1point per 10% additional starting wealth (at TL8 RAW thats $20,000 per 10pts). I would say that 40pts worth of skills and advantages vs flat out extra $80,000 at char generation is an even trade and wouldnt impose any great imbalance in my game. Truly I would probably try to discourage this unless it was a very experienced player and understood that I design my games to be broad scope in terms of navigating the world.
In a TL3-4 game thats $1000-$2000 per 10pts and again a full suit of armor with light war horse, sword, pack horse, finery, living expenses, etc easily $4000 even with my 50% starting equipment discount (house rule)... your Itinerant Knight is not ahead of your Scout who got lots of skills for survival or the mage that spent that on Magery 3 and a few spells. The Knight has nice gear but he's pretty much a 1 trick pony. He can fight, pack, ride and care for his horses, he MUST maintain clothing etc appropriate to his status (paid in points).

Summary:
This is why I don't get wrapped around the axle about those kind of details in a character generation situation, cause for the most part that Status0 couch/kitchen knife/laptop isn't an asset, thought it would be something the character would feasibly own. Used its not worth much at status4 and its worth even less at status0. Turned into cash its maybe 20% original value, your talking about craigslist and garage sale prices. Like a TL3 walking stick, thats not an asset I would charge (its also not a weapon quality quarterstaff which takes some prep and curing) but other than a higher chance of breaking I wouldnt stop anyone from just saying "I have cut myself a nice thick walking stick, with which I may whollop thee mightily".

Its also on you as GM to present a world where all your players have an even chance starting. If you make a world where nobility gives major benefits, but make it cheap to get this, its your fault as GM if one player can waltz through social encounters while the others struggle. Its your job to put them in situations that let each PC have something to contribute, or the chance to highlight the failings in spending points that way IF its an attempt to min max a one trick character. The knight may also struggle to resolve the travel issue that the rest of the party is perfectly happy with foraging a rabbit and some greens put together with some mostly ok potatoes for a stew and sleeping on the ground rather than pay for an Inn. Culture clash can also be a fun bit of inter party drama a GM can exploit, poaching a royal deer, turning your nose up at a meal with a farmer, why do we have to stop at all these shrines, why cant we camp near pine trees?
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Old 04-16-2020, 02:22 PM   #38
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Default Re: Wealth > Status Pyramid Article

FWIW In the U.S. as of 2018:

Average mortgage balance: $148,0602
Average new mortgage balance: $260,3863

This suggests that the average mortgage borrower has paid off substantially more than the 10% suggested in your estimate.
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Old 04-16-2020, 02:49 PM   #39
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Default Re: Wealth > Status Pyramid Article

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
FWIW In the U.S. as of 2018:

Average mortgage balance: $148,0602
Average new mortgage balance: $260,3863

This suggests that the average mortgage borrower has paid off substantially more than the 10% suggested in your estimate.
Yes, but just limiting yourself to homeowner substantially skews things.

Let's look at a primary source: https://www.census.gov/data/tables/2...ownership.html (a few years old, but still more recent than GURPS Basic).

If we assume 'average' is 'median', median net worth per household was $94k. However, a household is not a single person. If we limit ourself to single-person households, the median was $48k. If we limit ourselves to single-person households under the age of 35 (prototypical adventurer) the median was a mere $5,300. Given inflation since 2004, median net worth for a single person is still somewhat above what GURPS sets it at (about $40k) and the ratio is also off (median household income in 2016 was $61,779, so net worth around 18x monthly income, whereas by RAW it's only 7.7x at TL 8 and a rather unlikely 1.4x at TL 3), so it's probably most accurate to assume GURPS wealth is skewed towards the likely adventuring population.

My favorite number, though: the median net worth of owners was $228,200. The median net worth of renters was $2,523.
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Last edited by Anthony; 04-16-2020 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 04-16-2020, 03:17 PM   #40
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Default Re: Wealth > Status Pyramid Article

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it's probably most accurate to assume GURPS wealth is skewed towards the likely adventuring population.
GURPS does assume a 'heroic' average. Many traits from what I can tell can be decreased by 1 for a 'baseline regular person'; 9 on all attributes and Status -1 with Struggling Wealth. I'm not sure how much that affects your numbers, but it tends to line up for me.
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