ShadowDark, a RPG review.

[Fred Brackin]

If you're following the Memorable Quotes thread you may have seen the name 'Shadowdark" there as that's what we we're playing and wondered "What's that?".

Well it's this (link to free Quickstart)

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...Quickstart-Set

A quick look at the blurbs may lead your to "So it's OSR?" and while I saw the term "Old School Renaissance" used, most OSR people are content to go back to AD&D1e Shadowdark aspires to an older school than that.

My college room-mate who started this long strange trip had a set of what I can describe as "The Little Brown Books" that came just barely after Chainmail and while I never poured over those with my usual OCD level scrutiny I believe it is those books Shadowdark is based on..

It's fairly serious about you rolling 3d6 in order and taking what comes. As there's 40+ years of experience showing this is impractical there is an optional rule that if you don't have at least 1 score 14 or higher you can start over. DMs can also use their common sense as happened when my first character did have 1 14 but also a 3 for Strength and a 7 for Int.

(The attribute bonus table uses the 5e to 5e scale instead of something older)

Yes, I did roll a natural 3 with my first roll from a brand new set of dice but not 5 minutes later I rolled a natural 18 for con and this pretty much by itself anchored a successful Dwarven Fighter.

You do not start with maximum HP for first level. You roll even then. While no Race has a stat boost Dwarves do roll HP with advantage and start with +2 HP on top of that. From what i can tell everyone should paly a a Dwarf and no, there are no class restrictions.

Also, charmingly they have reduced hit dice. Even Fighters only get a D8. Priests get a D6 while Rogues and Wizards get a D4.

You also only get the ST score bonus to hit but not to damage. No i have no idea why but it's one of the things that made it possible for me to survive the one-shot as a Fighter with a ST of 10.

My only other stat above 10 was a Dex of 13 which helped with the AC. There were only Leather Chain and Plate (with an option for Mithral at 4x cost). It was only possible to buy chain if you rolled max money and bought _nothing_ else. One player pointed out that he could afford Mithral Leather but that seemed to have no useful effects.

This seques into gear and encumbrance and this was another problem because this was one of those systems for the ultimately Mathphobic where nthing has weight. There were only "gear slots" and everything took up a gear slot except you first backpack. Yes, even your Flint & Steel took up a full gear slot same as a Longsword.

The relative lack of gear slots rapidly became a big problem. The DM solved this by having us hire an npc. No one ever targeted him in combat and no one checked how much stuff he was hauling.

There is a very important rule about "luck tokens". You can buy a re-roll with one of these and are only supposed to get a new one when you do something "Heroic". Luck tokens are crucial to survival and we rapidly decided that saving a lif be it yours or another was "Heroic" and the tokens got replenished as fast as they were used.

So off we went to the dungeon (a Labyrynth actually) and we discovered that Kobolds had only 1 hp. They still managed to drop our rogue who had 2 HP because there were no weapon size rules and The Kobolds had full sized 1D6 spears.

5e like you dropped only to 0 HP and were supposed to only really "die" in 1D4+ Con bonus rounds. Another of our instantaneous fixes was to convert this to 4 + Con bonus rounds. You could either roll a natural 20 or another character could "stabilize" you with a DC15 Int check. The nat 20 even gave you 1 HP. Our NPC cleric did this once and immediately bounced back to full strength.

We also encountered a major rules issue once we started casting spells. Casters ahve no "slots" or other limiting features. Instead they haver to roll a n Int (or Wisdom) check with DC of 11 (for a 1st level Spell). As long as they can do this they can repeat the casting but with eve a simple failure they lose the ability to cast that spell until they've had a rest.

The problem is that even a maximally talented 1st level character has a 30 or 25% chance of so so failing. Uniquely, the check for Magic missile is rolled with Advantage. I guess you can see where the major magical research has gone.

Anyway, through luck and frantic use of Luck tokens we managed to not only avoid a TPK but even didn't lose anyone permanently (even the incredibly fragile Cleric).

We also made it 30% of the way to 2nd level.

As is one of my standard problems with OSR these rules were not good rules but it was fun to wrestle with them for a while and we saved everything and a continuation of our one-shot is now the emergency fill-in game for our group.

[Anthony]

Rolling for stats in true original D&D is okay because stats barely did anything at all. Clearly, they made the mistake of having stats actually do something.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Rolling for stats in true original D&D is okay because stats barely did anything at all. Clearly, they made the mistake of having stats actually do something.

Perhaps not as much as you might assume. I mentioned the ST bonus to hit but not damage and you only get your Con bonus to HP at 1st level.

Dex does improve AC (which is 3x style going up rather than down) and to hit for Ranged attacks. There's also the concept of "Finesse" weapons but so far that only seems to mean Daggers.

spellcasting stats certainly "seem" important to Spellcasters but the odds such no matter what your stat is.

There's little in the way of "Skills" and while Rogue-type activities are resolved as Dex checks, actual Rogues have Advantage and no one has to roll higher than a 15. Our Halfling rogue also had the Racial ability to go Invisible 3x per day and he pretty much went ona Reign of Terror at the Inn.

I don't think my character was even once disadvantaged by his 9 Int or 6 Cha even once.

Also in the area of traits that don't do anything there is Alignment. This is only Lawful, Neutral or Chaotic and no one was advantaged for being Lawful or disadvantaged for being Chaotic..

They also kept Level Titles and these have also had no effect yet. My character is theoretically a "Warrior" so far but at 2nd level he'd become a Barbarian. I regard this as a promotion but I'm not sure everyone would see thigns that way.

[ak_aramis]

Original Edition (Little White Books, Little Brown Books) uses variable numbers of D6, from a table, with differing dice and adds from a table for each of the 3 classes (FIghter, Cleric, Wizard)
OE using Sup 1+ goes to the (level)d8 for fighters and (added in Sup 1) Paladins, (level)d6 for Clerics, and (Level)d4 for Wizards and the (added in Sup 1) Thieves.
BX/BECMI/BBB-Cyclopedia (Moldvay-Cook/Mentzer/Denning-Alston) uses the same.

D&D 3/4/5 buil on AD&D/AD&D2

So the HD sizes are not diagnostic.

The lack of damage bonus is potentially diagnostic, but due to bonus to hit, is not.
OE core (no supps) only modifies to-hits for missiles, and on Dex.
Damage is unmodified, all weapons do 1d6 HP. (Tho', in my dead tree of 9th, that line is missing...)
OE+Sup1. STR modifies Melee To Hit and Melee Damage, whether using core 1d6 per hit or the optional damage by weapon type.

It may be based upon OE, but it's more likely based upon BX ... because most OSR games are. Many have gone to gear slots.

Looking at the QS, as you piqued my curiousity, the attribute modifiers and terminology are very much 3.x, with a reversion to BX for the reaction table and HP. it's not OE for the classes... it's more like 5e.

Also, not all items take one slot; a few take 0, a handful take 2 or even 3.

For an OSR game, these rules are quite well thought out; only a few others are as readable and clearly written.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

It may be based upon OE, but it's more likely based upon BX ... because most OSR games are. M.

In the blue box/Basic D&D I had "Elf" and "Dwarf" were Classes and they are "Ancestries" here.

I don't think the Law/Neutrality/Chaos Alignment system was in Basic either.

My largest previous experience with OSR was Castles and Crusades and that was definitely based on AD&D1e.

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

In the blue box/Basic D&D I had "Elf" and "Dwarf" were Classes and they are "Ancestries" here.

I don't think the Law/Neutrality/Chaos Alignment system was in Basic either.

My largest previous experience with OSR was Castles and Crusades and that was definitely based on AD&D1e.

Holmes is full 9 alighnments, both L/N/C and G/N/E axes. (I'm looking at it)

Modlvay-Cook BX, Mentzer BECMI, Denning Big Black Basic and Alston Cyclopeda is Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic.


All of BX/BECMI/BBB+Cyclopedia also use the racial classes. Not diagnostic, however, since a good number of OSR games drop racial classes in favor of 3.x/5.x multiclassing

It's worth noting that in OE, sans supplements, Elves are also magic users and fighters, but only one for a given adventure if they want to advance; Dwarves and Halflings only get fighter. In the supplements, they also get to opt for thief.

OE and Holmes share the lack of attack/damage mods in STR, however.
Also note that holmes shares the Sup1 HD, including con mods, but the other modifiers are OE corebook.

Note that the majority of the OSR basic references are specifically stated (outside the text) by the designers to be either OE+Sups I & II, or upon Moldvay. I've never seen a single one that's true to OE without supplements. There are a few that are AD&D derived, a few on FASRIP Marvel Super Heroes, one based upon TSR Conan (color table version; it's called ZeFRS). A few build from scratch (eg: Neoclassical Greek Revival, Mazes and Minotaurs), and several are AD&D stat compatible but totally new (eg: C&C) or 3.x (eg: Basic Fantasy) mechanics under the hood, and a few (like Shadowdark) pulling elements mostly from 5e.

C&C is one of those that doesn't use any of the old mechanics save Hit Dice and levels, but is ratings compatible with AD&D monsters and characters, at least providing one isn't using UA, OA, or the DSG/WSG... due to UA and OA inclusions of new classes, and to OA, DSG, and WSG adding proficiences.
Many don't consider it an OSR game, many do; I do, mostly because of the player base, but I'll note that, like Basic Fantasy M&M, ZeFRS, NGR, and 4C, the games themselves are ouliers within the design space favored by the OSR movement; even OSRIC is largely outside the design space, and it's as close as the committee could make it.