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Old 12-07-2022, 06:35 PM   #1
TippetsTX
 
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Default Armor up!

What sorts of house-rules do folks have around armor? New armor types perhaps, or talents to mitigate penalties?

For my table, I've been working on a new framework for armor w/ expanded options, ST requirements and revised stats. One of the drivers was my previously shared change to shields (see https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=170198), but my players and I also took issue w/ the way MA was a fixed value based on one's choice of armor and the lack of more nuanced interactions w/ the ST attribute.

Light
ST 5 - CLOTH
Stops 1 hit / -1 DX / $100 (1 week)
ST 6 - LEATHER
Stops 2 hits / -2 DX / $200 (2 weeks)
ST 7 - LAMINAR
Stops 3 hits / -3 DX / $300 (3 weeks)

Medium
ST 8 - REINFORCED LEATHER
Stops 4 hits / -2 DX / -1 MA / $450 (3 weeks)
ST 9 - CHAIN
Stops 5 hits / -3 DX / -1 MA / $600 (4 weeks)
ST 10 - SCALE
Stops 6 hits / -4 DX / -1 MA / $750 (5 weeks)

Heavy
ST 11 - BRIGANDINE
Stops 7 hits / -3 DX / -2 MA / $1000 (4 weeks)
ST 12 - HALF-PLATE
Stops 8 hits / -4 DX / -2 MA / $1500 (6 weeks)
ST 13 - FULL PLATE*
Stops 9 hits / -5 DX / -2 MA / $2500 (10 weeks)

*Full Plate that is specifically designed for use by mounted warriors is known as Calvary Plate. The cost is slightly higher ($3000) and attacks or actions from horseback use a lower DX penalty (-4) if the wearer has the EXPERT HORSEMANSHIP talent.

Notes:
The MA penalties are based on the lower scale that I use (i.e. Base MA = 1/2 RAW MA). Thus, those penalties would be doubled if applied to RAW.

All armors in my game are custom-made and fitted, hence the jump in base costs and the listed number of weeks in parentheses to complete.

DX and MA penalties may be reduced by talents or high ST. Decrease the DX penalty by 1 if ST exceeds the ST requirement by 3 points. MA is reduced by 1 for every 5 ST over the required amount. Like weapons, a figure may attempt to wear armor above their ST, but the penalties are increased (still working out the exact details of this).

Instead of reducing DX or MA penalties directly, *fine* quality armor will reduce minimum ST requirement by one (this is a new idea I'm testing for *fine* weapons as well).

The ST requirements above are based on 1-hex figure, but I also have these armors scaled from half-hex to 3-hex size figures.
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Last edited by TippetsTX; 12-07-2022 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 12-07-2022, 09:26 PM   #2
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Default Re: Armor up!

I realized my shield rules have evolved a bit since the thread mentioned above.

ST 6 - BUCKLER / VAMBRACES
-1 DX to be hit* (-0 DX penalty)
ST 8 - SMALL SHIELD
-1/-2 DX (-1 DX)
ST 10 - LARGE SHIELD
-2/-4 DX (-2 DX)
ST 12 - TOWER SHIELD
-3/-6 DX (-3 DX)

*In melee only... no protection vs. thrown or missile weapon attacks.

The first number is enforced on the shield-holder's opponent in melee while the second is applied to incoming thrown or missile attacks. The penalty in parentheses is applied to the shield-holder.

As with armor, the character may reduce their DX penalty by ONE for every 3 points of ST over the minimum required.
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Last edited by TippetsTX; 12-08-2022 at 09:35 AM.
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Old 12-17-2022, 09:49 PM   #3
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Default Re: Armor up!

Let's see if we can drum up some discussion here.

So while we're on the topic of armor, what do folks think about requiring a talent for wearing armor? I think most would agree that running around in heavy armor and fighting effectively requires training. And TFT already requires a talent for wielding a shield (though I find the RAW version of that talent a bit too strict).

To that end, I'm playtesting the following...

IQ 9 - ARMOR TRAINING (1)
A character can't simply put on a suit of armor and expect to fight or maneuver effectively. Armor may be worn without training, of course, but if the character expects to use armor regularly, the investment is worthwhile. This talent covers the basics of donning, wearing and maintaining all types of armor. Without this talent donning armor takes twice as long and, while wearing armor, performing most non-combat physical actions (climbing, swimming, horseback riding, etc.) adds a die to any task roll. Finally, armor worn by an 'untalented' figure will enforce an additional -1 DX penalty in combat.

(In my framework this is a 'Novice' tier, Basic talent costing 1 IQ at character creation or 250 XP afterwards)
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Old 12-18-2022, 06:55 AM   #4
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Default Re: Armor up!

I like Toughness as the armor talent because it requires ST and memory points that wizards will find hard to spare.
Warriors already have access to Toughness and it gives them the chance to start with armor and then layer on as they add ST and DX.
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Old 12-18-2022, 10:07 AM   #5
Rolando
 
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Default Re: Armor up!

I think IQ 9 is too high. It will limit some common fantasy themes, like dumb brutal masses of troops with armor.

Also...this is mostly just wearing a cumbersome suit and getting used to it. you dont need much intellect, you just need to keep at it.

If the "taking care of armor" part of the trait is removed there is no reason not to allow this trait for lower IQ's.
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Old 12-18-2022, 10:45 AM   #6
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Default Re: Armor up!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
I like Toughness as the armor talent because it requires ST and memory points that wizards will find hard to spare. Warriors already have access to Toughness and it gives them the chance to start with armor and then layer on as they add ST and DX.
Except the talent's description kinda undercuts that premise. Better to replace TOUGHNESS with a more generic name (DEFENSIVE TRAINING) and remove the ST requirement. That latter dependency now shifts to the armor itself as described in my first post.

And the addition of my proposed talent doesn't change the stackability between armor and talent-based damage reduction. It does create a new barrier for wizards who want to wear armor effectively which I like.
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Old 12-18-2022, 10:51 AM   #7
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Default Re: Armor up!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolando View Post
I think IQ 9 is too high. It will limit some common fantasy themes, like dumb brutal masses of troops with armor.

Also...this is mostly just wearing a cumbersome suit and getting used to it. you dont need much intellect, you just need to keep at it.

If the "taking care of armor" part of the trait is removed there is no reason not to allow this trait for lower IQ's.
In my own game, I have removed most IQ prerequisites for talents so this isn't a concern, but for a RAW game I would have no objection to making this an IQ 8 talent... even with the basic maintenance aspect (I actually assume that feature for all base weapon talents too).
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Old 12-20-2022, 12:54 AM   #8
David Bofinger
 
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Default Re: Armor up!

I dislike TFT's link between how heavy armour is and its material. See https://forums.sjgames.com/showpost....6&postcount=43
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Old 12-20-2022, 05:21 AM   #9
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Default Re: Armor up!

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
I dislike TFT's link between how heavy armour is and its material. See https://forums.sjgames.com/showpost....6&postcount=43
That's kind of natural. A gambeson that offered plate levels of protection would be too thick to walk around in, while paper thin plate would be too fragile. Chain is about the only scalable armor material, within limits.


But for fantasy materials see:
Hexagram 4
Not by Iron Alone: Material usage in Arms by Howard Kistler........p 22
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Old 12-20-2022, 09:39 PM   #10
David Bofinger
 
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Default Re: Armor up!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Chain is about the only scalable armor material, within limits.
Armour scaled by coverage, not thickness. People would preferentially armour those places which were:
  • easiest to protect (not e.g. joints and armpits),
  • most likely to cause death if injured (e.g. torso, head)
  • most likely to be hit (e.g. lower weapon arm)
  • least protected by shields (e.g. shins)
  • least inconvenient (e.g. torso, not e.g. limbs)

Compare a lorica segmentata &c with Renaissance plate: the most important places are covered in each case and the thickness of metal probably isn't that different but the Roman misses out on protection for his arms and lower thighs, and his face is a lot more open.

It's not perfect either but I think modelling the armour spectrum in terms of coverage is more accurate than doing it in terms of material.
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