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Old 10-16-2009, 10:42 AM   #31
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Why would magically animated undead like zombies be turned by a holy cleric?

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Originally Posted by sardook View Post
You could also argue that while a spirit is involved in the zombie making process, it is not tied to the body. The spirit just gives the body a jump start and the bodies original automatic functions take over. Once that is done the spirit can wonder off and do what ever.
However since it can interpret language and follow orders as opposed to say, operating only the necromancer's direct mental control, that it has a spirit of some sort in it just as the animated objects do, is the answer that makes the most sense.
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Old 10-16-2009, 10:43 AM   #32
Jerander
 
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Default Re: Why would magically animated undead like zombies be turned by a holy cleric?

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Originally Posted by sardook View Post
You could also argue that while a spirit is involved in the zombie making process, it is not tied to the body. The spirit just gives the body a jump start and the bodies original automatic functions take over. Once that is done the spirit can wonder off and do what ever.
Or another way to think about: Just because the *knowledge* needed to summon a spirit is necessary to reanimating corpse, that does not necessarily mean that a spirit is summoned to reanimate a corpse.
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Old 10-16-2009, 10:45 AM   #33
Jerander
 
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Default Re: Why would magically animated undead like zombies be turned by a holy cleric?

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
However since it can interpret language and follow orders as opposed to say, operating only the necromancer's direct mental control, that it has a spirit of some sort in it just as the animated objects do, is the answer that makes the most sense.
That does make sense. Then the question becomes, "does activating Golems, Independent Illusions, Creations, and so on involve summoned spirits?"
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Old 10-16-2009, 10:51 AM   #34
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Default Re: Why would magically animated undead like zombies be turned by a holy cleric?

Or, as has been pointed out previously, there are different kinds of spirit. There's the Egyptian model already mentioned, while Aristotle proposed different degrees of spirits: vegetative, which simply enables life, animate, which enables motion and feeling as in most animals, and rational, which is what enables thought in humans. So, then, even if a zombie has a spirit, it might be an artificially created one which provides motive force but no intelligence or moral characteristics, or it may be a recycled soul plucked from elsewhere and stripped down to perform a given task, or it may be an aspect of the deceased but not his whole soul (or not the part which goes on to an afterlife), or...well, there are many possibilities. The point being, I think, that just saying that there's "a spirit" doesn't necessarily mean a lot, depending on the inclinations of the GM.
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Old 10-16-2009, 11:39 AM   #35
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Default Re: Why would magically animated undead like zombies be turned by a holy cleric?

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Most earthly cultures have strong taboos about disrespect for the dead, however, and such a paradigm would seem alien to most players. Not that there's anything wrong with running against expectations, but it's important to be aware when you are so that you can "earn it" with sufficient justifications that don't sound like excuses.
Going that route can give you rather disturbing setting features. If the gods don't care about the body, you get things like using your enemies skulls as drinking cups being perfectly acceptable Good behavior.

The image of headhunting paladins defending the Neutral Good cannibal organleggers may not be for everybody.
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Old 10-16-2009, 12:08 PM   #36
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Default Re: Why would magically animated undead like zombies be turned by a holy cleric?

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Or another way to think about: Just because the *knowledge* needed to summon a spirit is necessary to reanimating corpse, that does not necessarily mean that a spirit is summoned to reanimate a corpse.
That's exactly what I've been trying to say.
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Old 10-16-2009, 12:54 PM   #37
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Default Re: Why would magically animated undead like zombies be turned by a holy cleric?

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
However since it can interpret language and follow orders as opposed to say, operating only the necromancer's direct mental control, that it has a spirit of some sort in it just as the animated objects do, is the answer that makes the most sense.
But the body has to be a relatively complete dead body so it would have a "imprint" of it's previous owner, muscle memory, cell memory or what have you, relatively intact. The zombie making process reactivates the previous spirits "imprint" on the body vs animating an inorganic (or incomplete organic body).
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Old 10-16-2009, 01:58 PM   #38
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Default Re: Why would magically animated undead like zombies be turned by a holy cleric?

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But the body has to be a relatively complete dead body so it would have a "imprint" of it's previous owner, muscle memory, cell memory or what have you, relatively intact. The zombie making process reactivates the previous spirits "imprint" on the body vs animating an inorganic (or incomplete organic body).
Zombies have no memories of their previous lives if created by this spell. If, for example a Basque necromancer animates the bodies of English sailors washed ashore, there is no language barrier. They retain no physical skills possessed in life. No real evidence for this imprint.

And IIRC, the Zombie spell as of GURPS Undead could be used to animate things that resembled dead bodies, ie statues and mannequines and scarecrows. NO POSSIBLE IMPRINT in those cases whatsoever.
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Old 10-16-2009, 02:07 PM   #39
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Default Re: Why would magically animated undead like zombies be turned by a holy cleric?

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Zombies have no memories of their previous lives if created by this spell. If, for example a Basque necromancer animates the bodies of English sailors washed ashore, there is no language barrier. They retain no physical skills possessed in life. No real evidence for this imprint.

And IIRC, the Zombie spell as of GURPS Undead could be used to animate things that resembled dead bodies, ie statues and mannequines and scarecrows. NO POSSIBLE IMPRINT in those cases whatsoever.
IIRC, GURPS Undead was pretty clear that *if* the GM allowed, the Zombie spell *might* be used to animate things other than corpses, depending on how the GM saw the spell working in his/her campaign...

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Old 10-16-2009, 05:23 PM   #40
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Default Re: Why would magically animated undead like zombies be turned by a holy cleric?

b-dog, there is no one answer.

You have to decide how you want it to work in your particular campaingn.

Zombie may put a spirit in a dead body...or not. It may just infuse the body with unholy energy. Or who knows what.

Zombies, Skeletons, Undead in general could be effected by Clerics...or not.

It is up to you to decide how you want to do it in your particular campaign.

There is no ONE official answer, because GURPS has to be able to handle more than one possibility. It has to be able your Dungeon Horror game and also my Serpent and the Rainbow campaign, and then the campaign of someone else who is doing a bit of Night of the Living Dead where Zombies don't ever get turned.

GURPS in general gives you options and possibilites, you choose the ones you like for your campaign.
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