[DF] Breaking Up DX And IQ

[scc]

Hello, for one or more potential DF games I'm looking at breaking up DX and IQ. IQ is probably the easier one to explain, first of all Will and Per get broken off, like in PU9 at 5 points a piece, secondly what remains of IQ is broken into two separate Attributes, IQ and WIS(dom), with IQ representing pure thinking ability and WIS critical thinking skills, common sense, memory and, well, wisdom. The parallel I'm going for is that IQ is like upgrading the processor in your computer and WIS is getting less crash prone software. Skills probably float between them a lot, but knowledge-based skills, like Hidden Lore, would be firmly on the WIS side. Costs IQ 15, WIS 10

DX is more complicated to explain, probably because it hasn't fully jelled in my head. I want to split off full-body movement and, well, grace into a GR(ace) Attribute, this Attribute would cover the skills Acrobatics, Dancing, Escape, Light Walk, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth, but it would also cover Deceptive Attack and trying to impress someone with your weapon skills. GR would likely be capped by DX, with costs of DX 15 and GR 10.

So what do people think?

[Anders]

That you're going to end up with a crapton of attributes, and that will be difficult to keep track off. IQ into Per and Will, is a classic, not much problem there. The others I would leave as they are.

If you do this, remember to increase the point value of your PCs accordingly. You'll probably be looking at something like a 30-50% increase.

[Donny Brook]

I have plan to do something similar but I have a bit of tinkering left to do before playtesting.

First, bear in mind that floating skills rolls to different attributes is inherent to my concept, so attribute pricing is not dependent on any expectation of the number of skills affected.

Also, (1) the silos of the existing four attributes are maintained, so they can still be purchased as is and played without using the separated versions and (2) composition of secondary attributes can be realigned to be more realistic using the separated sub attributes.

With that in mind, my breakout is as follows:

DX = 1/4 × (Speed + Agility (AG) + Senses-Appendage Coordination (COOR) + Manual Dexterity (DEX)). Each component costs [5] per step.

IQ = 1/5 × (PER + WILL + Emotional Quotient (EQ) + Cogitation (COG) + Memory (MEM)). Each component costs [5] per step, so aggregate IQ increases from base cost of [20] to [25].

HT = 1/2 × (Fitness (FIT) + Constitution (CON)). Each component costs [5]. FP would derive from the FIT stat while most resistances would be based on CON.

Still working out ST.

[Rolando]

I would divide DX between gross agility (AG?) and fine dexterity (DX?).

Broad movements concerning large parts of the body is agility (acrobatics, most melee skills) and dexterity is hand eye coordination, and fine manual work (guns, bow, lockpicking, etc).

Stealth seems to me more agility because it is how you balance yourself, body weight shifting, and knowing where your body start and end so you get better use of cover and darkness to not be seen.

Also, it seems to me you will end with a lot of complicated detail that may not bring much entertainment.

You can always make a few new advantages like striking strength, that give bonuses to attributes for certain, limited, tasks.

[AlexanderHowl]

One of the beautiful aspects of GURPS is the relative simplicity of the attribute system. Changing the number of attributes changes the nature of system because it make it more complex. Now, this does not mean that the system cannot be improved upon, it just means that it is difficult to improve upon it without increasing complexity or breaking universality.

For example, let us take ST. At 10 CP/level, its components are HP [2 CP/level], Lifting ST [3 CP/level], and Striking ST [5 CP/level]. Of course, ST is more important in lower TLs than higher TLs, so there is an argument to be made for modifying ST (and its underlying components) by -10%×(TL-4), ranging from +40% for TL0 to -80% for TL12. At TL0, high ST is just more valuable, and low ST is just more painful, than at TL12.

Of course, this breaks the universality of the system, so that is why it is not done, as characters can travel through multiple TLs just by journeying through a normal setting. It is also quite complex compared to the default rules because it give additional penalties/bonuses for Low TL/High TL.

[Donny Brook]

ST is a challenged because it breaks out in different dimensions.

There's Striking ST + Lifting ST + HP is one, but there is also Arm ST + (unofficial) Leg ST + HP.

[Say, it isn't that bad!]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

For example, let us take ST. At 10 CP/level, its components are HP [2 CP/level], Lifting ST [3 CP/level], and Striking ST [5 CP/level]. Of course, ST is more important in lower TLs than higher TLs, so there is an argument to be made for modifying ST (and its underlying components) by -10%×(TL-4), ranging from +40% for TL0 to -80% for TL12. At TL0, high ST is just more valuable, and low ST is just more painful, than at TL12.

Of course, this breaks the universality of the system, so that is why it is not done, as characters can travel through multiple TLs just by journeying through a normal setting. It is also quite complex compared to the default rules because it give additional penalties/bonuses for Low TL/High TL.

To a certain extent, I feel this is compensated for by the increased ability to buy gene-mods/bioware/cyberware/other at high TLs, and the increased cash to purchase said enhancements.

[Tyneras]

In Pyramid #3/83 the article Playing With Health has a section on moving a number of skills from DX to Per, and another on moving skills from DX to Speed. Both can use used together, and effectively spread out skills from DX without the need for new attributes. I've been wanting to run a game with this some day.

[scc]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

I have plan to do something similar but I have a bit of tinkering left to do before playtesting.

First, bear in mind that floating skills rolls to different attributes is inherent to my concept, so attribute pricing is not dependent on any expectation of the number of skills affected.

Also, (1) the silos of the existing four attributes are maintained, so they can still be purchased as is and played without using the separated versions and (2) composition of secondary attributes can be realigned to be more realistic using the separated sub attributes.

With that in mind, my breakout is as follows:

DX = 1/4 × (Speed + Agility (AG) + Senses-Appendage Coordination (COOR) + Manual Dexterity (DEX)). Each component costs [5] per step.

IQ = 1/5 × (PER + WILL + Emotional Quotient (EQ) + Cogitation (COG) + Memory (MEM)). Each component costs [5] per step, so aggregate IQ increases from base cost of [20] to [25].

HT = 1/2 × (Fitness (FIT) + Constitution (CON)). Each component costs [5]. FP would derive from the FIT stat while most resistances would be based on CON.

Still working out ST.

I'm going for 4 Attributes of each type (Physical and mental), so breaking them down doesn't do anything for me. Further making attributes so cheap is open to easy abuse.

Originally Posted by Rolando

I would divide DX between gross agility (AG?) and fine dexterity (DX?).

Broad movements concerning large parts of the body is agility (acrobatics, most melee skills) and dexterity is hand eye coordination, and fine manual work (guns, bow, lockpicking, etc).

Stealth seems to me more agility because it is how you balance yourself, body weight shifting, and knowing where your body start and end so you get better use of cover and darkness to not be seen.

Also, it seems to me you will end with a lot of complicated detail that may not bring much entertainment.

You can always make a few new advantages like striking strength, that give bonuses to attributes for certain, limited, tasks.

This doesn't work really well because your fine dexterity would only cover the skills in the High Manual Dexterity group, not really a good setup, because it creates a dump stat, say whatever else you want to about GURPS, but it manages to avoid that.

[Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2]

This entire subject is covered - and in more detail - in Power-Ups 9 - Alternate Attributes.