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Old 11-17-2012, 03:41 PM   #551
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

A review of DD's powerset, with his "radar" adjusted slightly based on above comments. Abilities relevant to the current discussion highlighted for reference.

Per 15 [15]
Catfall (Biological, -10%) [9] (a side-effect of his sense of balance, really)
Discriminatory Hearing (Passive Biological, -5%) [15]
Discriminatory Smell (Emotion Sense, +50%; Passive Biological, -5%) [22]
Discriminatory Taste (Passive Biological, -5%) [10]
Imaging Radar (Extended Arc: 360, +125%; No Intercept, +50%; Reflexive, +40%; Super, -10%) [61]
Parabolic Hearing 3 (Passive Biological, -5%) [12]
Perfect Balance (Passive Biological, -5%) [15]
Sensitive Touch (Stethoscopic, +50%; Ultra-Fine, +30%; Passive Biological, -5%) [18]
Vibration Sense (Passive Biological, -5%) [10]
No Nuisance Rolls (Imaging Radar) [1]
Extended Hearing (High) [1]
Extended Hearing (Low) [1]
Swinging [1]
Blindness [-50]
Susceptible to Loud Noises -5 [-20]
Blind Fighting (VH) Per+3 [20] – 18


Now, given all of the above, what's his effective combat penalties?
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Last edited by Phantasm; 11-17-2012 at 03:44 PM.
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Old 11-17-2012, 04:07 PM   #552
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Those subsets of Radar function just like radar except that Imaging Radar gives you a finer detail at the cost of range and Para-Radar is like Imaging Radar but works everywhere and is more difficult to intercept.
Quote:
I've quoted from the rulebook why Radar and it's derivatives wouldn't let you ignore the -6 combat skill penalty if you have Blind. That's big strike against the above statement ignoring all the other drawbacks that being Blind should also give you.
I glossed over this before, but actually most of this is wrong. By default "you may ignore darkness penalties in combat" with Scanning Sense (B81). It even specifies that this is because it has nothing to do with sight and does not require any light.

It is only Radar that specifies limitations on this and this also mentions nothing about -6 for blindness.

Quote:
By the time you spend a hundred point or more on enhancements and advantages to negate a -50 point disadvantage, you haven't really gained much. The problem specifically with Scanning Sense and Blind costing less than Vision (as a package deal), ignoring the biggest drawbacks of being Blind, ending up with an arguably superior sense, and it ending up costing a bit less.
Scanning Sense, Imaging Radar [20] is a pretty good substitute overall.

Only need to make sense rolls for making out fine relief (and of course noticing stuff just like with regular senses), can see through thin fabrics and vegetation, bonus to spot concealed objects. On the negative side: Range, 200 yards. Doesn't work underwater. can't detect colours. Is detectable and can be interfered with. By the time you've bought off most of that it's :

Scanning Sense, Imaging Radar [20] enhanced with No Intercept +50%, Underwater +20%, Line-of-Sight range, +30%, Reflexive +40%, No Nuissance Rolls [1] = 45 points!

Perks that vision doesn't have: Seeing through thin fabrics and vegetation (with adjacent bonus to spot hidden objects)
Perks Vision has: Discerning colours. Effectively has "Cosmic: No Die Roll" for making out fine relief in contrast to the scanning sense's no nuissance roll.

I think vision comes squarely out on top here though not by a huge margin.

Discerning color is 10 points on its own (as a +50% cosmic add-on to imaging radar, this comes out the same which is neat). And that light concealment bonus for imaging radar is probably in the 5 point department in points worth.

But do note, our blind hero who wants to make fine relief sensing as passive as with vision needs a sense roll of 20 to qualify for the No Nuissance Rolls perk (reflexive giving a -4 roll for passively switching itself on). That is a pretty hefty background investment as well (though it course is quite useful in and of itself).

Alternatively, drop reflexive and No Nuissance Rolls and simply add Cosmic: Can Detect fine relief as well as vision for a net cost of one extra point.

If we were to add another level of Cosmic (Can discern colour) we'd up up with a Scanning Sense that can do what vision does and see through thin fabrics and vegetation (with adjacent bonus to spot hidden objects) at a net cost of 56 points.

Substract 50 points for blindness and you've paid 6 points for the net game effect of seeing through thin fabrics and vegetation. I'd say that is about right, maybe a point or two too expensive for what you get. For comparison Acute Vision 3 is six points and more useful than the +3 bonus to spot hidden objects. Penetrating Vision is only 10 points and a lot more potent.

Quote:
Personally I think the path of "Blind, but has a super sense that allows him to ignore the combat penalties and target normally -50%" is a lot easier to understand than trying to add enhancements for Scanning Sense and work around the drawbacks of being Blind with other advantages.
I prefer traits that do what they say on the tin. The imaging radar build above largely emulates vision and has a cost in the same ballpark. But the point is, that it is not vision. It's something different, it's a different trait meant to emulate a different sense. It is to me much more intuitive than having to eyeball what parts of vision does and does not apply to my modified Vision-but-not-really-vision-Blindness-with-mitigators disadvantage.

Quote:
If you have another sense that mitigates many or all of the effects of being Blind, how can you believe it's worth points or even as many points as the full disadvantage? It's been a pretty fundamental principle if that any disadvantage that doesn't come into play (as the game effects describe) isn't a valid disadvantage. If you believe that a form of Radar (or other Scanning Sense) mitigates the game effects of being Blind, you should reduce the value of the disadvantage according to how much less of a disadvantage it is. Radar already has several advantages over normal sight. Giving Blind as "free" disadvantage points doesn't make any sense.
It is a valid disadvantage because once you take away that sense, the character is hugely disadvantaged. And as you can see above, it costs more or less the same to emulate the effects of vision with scanning sense+blindness. Making Blindness worth less because Scanning Sense accomplishes this emulation is simply punishing the character with extra points cost for making a different concept with similar utility to regular vision.

I say again, unless you really want to argue that characters with Charisma 5 and Odious Personal Habit 2 should get less points from their OPH because it is cancelled out by their Charisma for a net positive reaction bonus, you are simply barking up the wrong tree on this one.

They are in both cases, instances of advantages and disadvantages paid and received in full where the net effect is that the disadvantage is effectively cancelled out, with a few rare exceptions. The reason to do something like this is most of all to flesh out a different character concept with more nuance and variation than "baseline human."

Last edited by B9anders; 11-17-2012 at 06:17 PM.
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Old 11-17-2012, 04:09 PM   #553
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbrock1031 View Post
Now, given all of the above, what's his effective combat penalties?
None. Naloth is wrong on this. He doesn't need blindfighting either. Scanning Sense explicitly allows you to ignore darkness penalties in combat.
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:19 PM   #554
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by B9anders View Post
None. Naloth is wrong on this. He doesn't need blindfighting either. Scanning Sense explicitly allows you to ignore darkness penalties in combat.
I would still give him the Blind Fighting becasue he has fought even when his radar is jammed just using hearing and smell.
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:40 PM   #555
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by B9anders View Post
None. Naloth is wrong on this. He doesn't need blindfighting either. Scanning Sense explicitly allows you to ignore darkness penalties in combat.
Blind people ignore darkness penalties as well but still suffer a flat -6 to combat skills. It's a large part of why Blindness is worth -50 points.

Read Blindness. It has the game effects that you automatically get a -6 combat skill penalty, cannot target hit locations at all, and cannot see. While you're allowed to purchase a Scanning Sense in addition to this disadvantage it never says that the Scanning Sense mitigates any of these effects. In truth, most of the verbiage of Radar says it's not responsive or accurate enough to mitigate these drawbacks.

Explicitly Scanning Senses just give you a feel for what's around you. Radar and is subsets are explicitly noted for just giving you a general idea of the relative size and whether it's moving, but not an actual image. No form of Radar cannot be used for Aiming (unless you purchase Targeting and still it's just a +3 to skill when you aim) - it's just not responsive enough.

Your interpretation implies that Imaging Radar [20] and Blinding [-50] functions as a net -30 disadvantage that gives you the ability to fight normally in darkness, penetrate light cover, and find hidden objects better. The "net" disadvantages are that you're color blind and need to make a few more Vision checks than normal. Does that seem reasonable? Compared to the 0 point Infravision change which has most of the same drawbacks (Color Blind, hard for you to distinguish faces/fine features, and normal reading is impossible) and not all of the same advantages I really don't how you can say that is balanced.

Anyway, if you want to discuss this further why don't you spin it into a separate thread or PM one of the editors for an official ruling. I've outlined why I disagree with what you're saying:
- It's unreasonable to get points back and end up with a sense that's going to be more useful than normal Vision in a lot of situations.
- Your interpretation makes it a better deal than Infravision and other 0 point vision substitutions.
- You are taking a disadvantage and ignoring all of it's effects.
- Radar (and it's derivatives) explicitly aren't good enough to be substitute senses for combat unlike say Vibration Sense which has rules that you can use for combat targeting.

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Originally Posted by B9anders View Post
It is only Radar that specifies limitations on this and this also mentions nothing about -6 for blindness.
That's part of taking Blindness.

Quote:
<snip>
Substract 50 points for blindness and you've paid 6 points for the net game effect of seeing through thin fabrics and vegetation. I'd say that is about right, maybe a point or two too expensive for what you get. For comparison Acute Vision 3 is six points and more useful than the +3 bonus to spot hidden objects. Penetrating Vision is only 10 points and a lot more potent.
How is Acute Vision more effective than ignoring all Vision penalties and a +3 to spotting hidden objects? +3 to vision rolls (and ignoring -3 in vision modifiers) is nice, but ignoring them completely is far better. You've also neglected that 6 points also effectively includes Dark Vision (w/Color Sense) which is worth another 30 points.

Sure, Penetrating Vision gives you other stuff but so does Telescopic Vision. Bringing in unrelated traits that can offer other bonuses just muddies the water. We should try to keep this as apples to apples as possible.

Quote:
I prefer traits that do what they say on the tin. The imaging radar build above largely emulates vision and has a cost in the same ballpark. But the point is, that it is not vision. It's something different, it's a different trait meant to emulate a different sense. It is to me much more intuitive than having to eyeball what parts of vision does and does not apply to my modified Vision-but-not-really-vision-Blindness-with-mitigators disadvantage.
I consider having 30-40 points worth of advantages over normal vision as freebies a little out of the ballpark.

Quote:
It is a valid disadvantage because once you take away that sense, the character is hugely disadvantaged. And as you can see above, it costs more or less the same to emulate the effects of vision with scanning sense+blindness. Making Blindness worth less because Scanning Sense accomplishes this emulation is simply punishing the character with extra points cost for making a different concept with similar utility to regular vision.
How is the character any more disadvantaged than a normal vision person suddenly losing their sight? You're arguing that you should get a break on your enhanced senses but the enhanced senses aren't usually at any more risk than normal senses are. If anything, normal sight is much easier to disable than Radar or Para-Radar. You can poke someone's eyes, throw dust in them, spray them with pepper spray, shoot out the lights to make it dark, or toss a smoke grenade. Radar and Para-Radar ignore normal vision penalties and don't come built-in with sensitive exposed organs that are easy to disable.

Ignoring the game effects that Blindness has makes it less of a disadvantage. It's not punishing the character to enforce disadvantages chosen.

Quote:
I say again, unless you really want to argue that characters with Charisma 5 and Odious Personal Habit 2 should get less points from their OPH because it is cancelled out by their Charisma for a net positive reaction bonus, you are simply barking up the wrong tree on this one.
I'm arguing that both would play for a net +3. You're effectively arguing that they should ignore the OPH totally just because one or more points of Charisma is in play.

Last edited by naloth; 11-17-2012 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:24 PM   #556
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbrock1031 View Post
A review of DD's powerset, with his "radar" adjusted slightly based on above comments. Abilities relevant to the current discussion highlighted for reference.
<snip>
Vibration Sense (Passive Biological, -5%) [10]
Blind Fighting (VH) Per+3 [20] – 18

Now, given all of the above, what's his effective combat penalties?
Scanning Sense especially with Reflexive should make you aware of any attack coming towards you in a general sense (so you would be almost impossible to surprise) but it doesn't say anything about mitigating penalties for disadvantages you have (specifically B394 outlines penalties for when you're Blind and relying on other senses than Vision).

Blind Fighting mitigates melee penalties (unless you target a specific hit location which is at a -2) for both attack and defense provided you can make the roll. A no nuisance perk would be good here to avoid rolling a lot.

Ranged combat would still be an issue since you're supposed to be at -4 to defend if you cannot see your attacker with Vision and the -6 to attack for being Blind still applies even if you locate your attacker with another sense.

Both Vibration Sense and Blind Fighting are decent Vision substitutes (and have advantages for when your other senses are on the fritz), but it seems like you're still working awfully hard to mitigate parts of Blindness that could be mitigated by a limitation easier.

Blindness w/-50% "not affected by combat penalties because my radar sense functions as well if not better than vision for combat purposes while active" seems a cheaper and faster solution than buying a bunch of traits to buy off the effects of Blindness.
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:31 PM   #557
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Scanning Sense especially with Reflexive should make you aware of any attack coming towards you in a general sense (so you would be almost impossible to surprise) but it doesn't say anything about mitigating penalties for disadvantages you have (specifically B394 outlines penalties for when you're Blind and relying on other senses than Vision).

Blind Fighting mitigates melee penalties (unless you target a specific hit location which is at a -2) for both attack and defense provided you can make the roll. A no nuisance perk would be good here to avoid rolling a lot.

Ranged combat would still be an issue since you're supposed to be at -4 to defend if you cannot see your attacker with Vision and the -6 to attack for being Blind still applies even if you locate your attacker with another sense.

Both Vibration Sense and Blind Fighting are decent Vision substitutes (and have advantages for when your other senses are on the fritz), but it seems like you're still working awfully hard to mitigate parts of Blindness that could be mitigated by a limitation easier.

Blindness w/-50% "not affected by combat penalties because my radar sense functions as well if not better than vision for combat purposes while active" seems a cheaper and faster solution than buying a bunch of traits to buy off the effects of Blindness.
Rules as written strongly implies that Scanning Sense negates combat penalties for Blindness. From B81:
It (Scanning Sense) has nothing to do with the normal human sense of sight, and requires no light. As a result you may ignore darkness penalties in combat.
So Scanning Sense lets you fight without penalties even in total darkness when you can't see - i.e., when you're blind.

Now from the description of Blindness, B124-B125:
You cannot see at all...You are at -6 to all combat skills...If you suddenly lose your eyesight you fight at -10 just as if you were in total darkness. In either case you suffer no extra penalties for operating in the dark...Note that Scanning Sense (p. 81) and Vibration Sense (p. 96) are not vision; you may take either of these traits in conjunction with Blindness, at the usual point costs.
So a character with Blindness suffers from Combat penalties because he can't see - "just as if you were in total darkness." A character with Scanning Sense (which is explicitly allowed to Blind characters) suffers no combat penalties for being unable to see. Therefore logically a character who takes Scanning Sense and Blindness should not suffer combat penalties at least when the Scanning Sense is effective.

You could argue that Blindness is much less limiting for a character with Scanning Sense and therefore should be worth less as a Disadvantage - perhaps a -50% Mitigator "Possesses alternate targeting sense." I think you could make a good game balance case for that. But that's not rules as written. I think it takes a fairly esoteric reading of the rules to say that combat penalties for Blindness apply even when the character has an alternate sense that explicitly negates penalties for being unable to see.

Last edited by Infornific; 11-20-2012 at 05:32 PM. Reason: Corrected quote
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Old 12-07-2013, 02:13 AM   #558
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

Taking a break from character design to flesh out some of the "standard" technologies the various hero and villain teams would have access to. Starting from the back of the list for this one. :)

X-MEN'S VAN

When they first formed while starting college, the X-Men didn't have any means of transportation besides their own private cars, none of which were suitable for the situations they repeatedly found themselves in (see X-Men). Seeking to remedy this, Hank McCoy and Warren Worthington, the X-Men known as Beast and Angel, respectively, worked out preliminary designs for an urban combat vehicle suitable for the team to use without causing excessive damage to New York City (see Angel; Beast). Angel delivered the preliminary designs to his father's company, Worthington Industries, who then collaborated with Stark International and General Motors to produce a prototype (see Stark International). The prototype was delivered to the X-Men a few weeks later. Officially, the X-Men are "contracted" to perform "field tests" on the new vehicle.

The X-Men's van is a van mostly in name, though it shares a lot of features with conventional automobiles. The van is a six-wheeled urban combat prototype, with four drive wheels in the rear providing power. The van seats eight – the driver and seven passengers - with a top hatch for Angel, Iceman, and Marvel Girl to rapidly exit as well as a side hatch for conventional use, and is powered by a hybrid diesel-electric engine (see Marvel Girl). The armor is capable of withstanding fire from even AIM's high-powered pulse laser weapons, while the engine provides enough power to enable it to move at highway speeds (see AIM). Offensively, the van packs no built-in firepower, but has a mount on the roof for a machine gun or laser (added by General Motors for its own military contracts).

TL: 9
ST/HP: 150
Hnd/SR: -1/4
HT: 12
Move: 6/40*
LWt: 10 t
Load: 0.8
SM: +4
Occ: 1+7S
DR: 60
Range: 1,300
Cost: $299K (for mass production; prototype costs roughly $3M)
Streamlined: No

Front:
[1] Armor, Advanced Metallic Laminate; DR 30, $20K
[2] Armor, Advanced Metallic Laminate; DR 30, $20K
[3] Control Room; C6 Computer, Comm/Sensor 1, 1 Control Station, $20K
[4] Passenger Seating; 1 seat, $3K
[5] Passenger Seating; 1 seat, $3K
[6!!!] Wheeled Drivetrain; $3K

Middle:
[1] Armor, Advanced Metallic Laminate; DR 30, $20K
[2] Armor, Advanced Metallic Laminate; DR 30, $20K
[3] Passenger Seating; 1 seat, $3K
[4] Passenger Seating; 1 seat, $3K
[5] Passenger Seating; 1 seat, $3K
[6] Passenger Seating; 1 seat, $3K
[core] Fuel Tank; 0.5 t capacity, $3K

Rear:
[1] Armor, Advanced Metallic Laminate; DR 30, $20K
[2] Armor, Advanced Metallic Laminate; DR 30, $20K
[3] Gas Turbine Engine; 2PP, 4 hr duration; $3K
[4] Gas Turbine Engine; 2PP, 4 hr duration; $3K
[5] Gas Turbine Engine; 2PP, 4 hr duration; $3K
[6!!!] Wheeled Drivetrain; $3K
[core] Fuel Tank; 0.5 t capacity, $3K

Design Features:
Hardened Armor; $120K
NBC Filters Only


Built using systems from Spaceships, Spaceships 4, and Pyramid #3/34.
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The GURPS Marvel Universe Reboot Project A-G, H-R, and S-Z, and its not-a-wiki-really web adaptation.
Ranoc, a Muskets-and-Magery Renaissance Fantasy Setting

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Old 12-11-2013, 12:24 PM   #559
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

X-MEN'S JET

The first jet used by the X-Men was simply a commercially available Challenger 605 owned by Worthington Industries and stored at LaGuardia Airport, appropriated by Warren Worthington III, the X-Man known as Angel, on a mission to Europe (see Angel; X-Men). Following this, the X-Men decided they would need a dedicated aircraft of their own. Fortunately, Worthington and fellow X-Man Scott Summers, also known as Cyclops (who also piloted the jet), knew just where to turn to obtain one (see Cyclops).

The current X-Jet, affectionately known as the Blackbird after its spiritual predecessor, the SR-71, is a prototype design produced by Lockheed-Martin, with avionics and parts obtained from Stark Industries and Worthington Industries (see Stark Industries). Its hull is formed from a lightweight radar-absorbing advanced laminate material, forward-swept wings and thrust vectoring for greater agility, and lift jets that can be engaged to permit it to perform VTOL operations. The craft seats two in the cockpit and can seat eight passengers comfortably.

TL: 9
ST/HP: 300
Hnd/SR: +5/5
HT: 12
Move: 20/1,750 (3,500 mph)
LWt: 100 t
Load: 4 t
SM: +6
Occ: 2+8S
DR: 100
Range: 12,000
Cost: $7.16M
Streamlined: Yes

Front Hull:
[1-2] Armor, Advanced Metallic Laminate; DR 100, $400K
[3] Control Room; C5 Computer, Comm/Sensor 4, 2 Control Stations, $200K
[4] Passenger Seating; 6 seats, $30K
[5a] Passenger Seating; 2 seats, $10K
[5b-5c] Cargo Hold; 3 t
[6] Fuel Tank; 5 t, $30K

Central Hull:
[1-2] Armor, Advanced Metallic Laminate; DR 100, $400K
[3-6, core] Fuel Tanks; 25 t, $150K

Rear Hull:
[1-2] Armor, Advanced Metallic Laminate; DR 100, $400K
[3-4] Jet Engine; 2G accel, 2 tanks/hr, $4M
[5] Maneuver Enhancements; $150K
[6, core] Fuel Tanks; 10 t, $60K

Design Features:
Stealth Hull; -6 to detection rolls, $500K
Winged; $500K


Biggest issue I'm running into is figuring out how to get the Range. I'm not finding anything anywhere which would indicate how to come up with it. 7 tanks of fuel at 2 tanks per hour of operation at top speed, going 3500 mph (making a transcontinental flight in an hour). Ideas?

Also, yes, this is patterned off the FSW Blackbird built by Forge in the comics around 1990, and used in the first three X-Men movies.
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"But mom, I don't wanna go back in the dungeon!"

The GURPS Marvel Universe Reboot Project A-G, H-R, and S-Z, and its not-a-wiki-really web adaptation.
Ranoc, a Muskets-and-Magery Renaissance Fantasy Setting

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Old 12-11-2013, 12:41 PM   #560
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

Actually, just stating it as "3.5 hours at top speed" seems fine to me. In line with "The strength of a normal human who engages in no regular exercise and eats a lot of donuts" really.

Also, both these bad boys should get 1.2x DR (DR 72 for the UCV and DR 120 for the Jet) for having 6 armor systems. Since you are using Pyramid 3/34.
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