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Old 07-20-2014, 06:47 AM   #21
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Tweaking weapons and Armour for Space opera:

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
exactly. one in three hit. That's routine. That's good. That's dangerous. Thats close enough to slow down my movement and make me dive for cover. .
That's not one in three of individual laser pulses. It's one out of each three attempts at ROF 10 with no negative mods except range and n defenses taken into account and attempts are no more than every other second because this is Aimed fire.

It could very reasonably be seen as one out of six or one out of thirty.

Also seen as a waste of time. At 1000 yards you could use guided munitions and score actual hits and not just send misses somewhere nearby. Score kills too and even on armored vehicles and not just unarmored humans.
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Old 07-20-2014, 08:10 AM   #22
ericthered
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Default Re: Tweaking weapons and Armour for Space opera:

Yes, Per round of firing. I'll hit you after three bursts, on average. Those are not odds anyone should mess around with. You also assume I'm not doing things like using scopes or bracing my weapon. At which point I'm hitting 75% of the time. Or maybe my grunts are a tiny bit better trained and have skill 12 or 13.

Really, You're arming your grunts with super-expensive guided munitions? Are you sure they have them in this space opera? and you can afford that many? And you can easily and cheaply train all your grunts to use them? And can they aim the guided missile in four seconds? cause that's all the time they got. Assuming my guys don't have scopes, in which case they have two seconds.
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Old 07-20-2014, 10:06 AM   #23
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Tweaking weapons and Armour for Space opera:

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Really, You're arming your grunts with super-expensive guided munitions? .
Nope, I'm using the really cheap ones from UT. A guided 25mm grenade is less than $10 and usable out to 2200 yards.

If your Space Opera is truly Retro-Tech these may not exist but then many of the aids used for laser rifles won't either.

Even in Retro-Tech Space Opera the laser rifles might not or might only be used for hunting or chasing insurgents through the boonies. On a battlefield that has open stretches of 1000 yards the notable thing it the Super-Dreadnaughts hovering over it and blasting things with _real_ energy artillery.

That's why you have squads and maybe platoons of Space Marines focusing on short-range combat and not regiments of Space Infantry marching to victory.
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Old 07-20-2014, 12:15 PM   #24
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Default Re: Tweaking weapons and Armour for Space opera:

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I'm not doubting that the riffle is that accurate on round one. I'm doubting that the user is that accurate. I'm arguing that it takes more than two seconds to steady your own hands to the point that you can point the laser accurately enough to hit a target a tenth of a mile away. reliably. with minimal training (1 point on a DX 10 character).
One neat thing about lasers is you can use all thre tricks they use on modern cameras. Particularly image stabilization (which also works out to beam stabilization, if you have a laser). This means that you don't need to steady your hands, the machinery does that for you. It should make aiming much easier than with a slugthrower that responds as one solid unit to your adjustments.

Other camera tricks might also be fun. Facial recognition, for example - shoot people in the face every time!

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Old 07-20-2014, 12:34 PM   #25
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Default Re: Tweaking weapons and Armour for Space opera:

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I also am going to take any roll above 3d and change it to 2d*x. I like the swingy damage. Is this going to change the Armour/Damage balance? will those values need to be tweaked?

Thanks!
This will make it so that armor that's intended to completely block an attack's damage (by having DR equal to the attack's average damage) will be much more likely to be penetrated and penetrated significantly. It's likely to primarily make weapons more lethal against armored targets, in other words.

Last edited by Langy; 07-20-2014 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 07-20-2014, 12:49 PM   #26
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Default Re: Tweaking weapons and Armour for Space opera:

That's why I've changed lasers in my science fantasy game. A RoF of 10 is ridiculous. I've toned down most of the weapons and armor. The military versions are usually at least 1d better than the civilian versions and has access to things like armor piercing rounds. I also use the half damage/(2) for long arms.

Since my campaign isn't military they rarely have access to military weapons or armor. Of course that means that if they get caught by a military of a decent TL then surrendering is usually the best choice.
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Old 07-25-2014, 02:42 AM   #27
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Default Re: Tweaking weapons and Armour for Space opera:

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I've always had this vague suspicion/superstition that Acc should only count for canceling range penalties and not hit location or speed penalties.

I don't think that fully makes sense (far is small is far) but the idea is there none the less...
Okay so I figured out what I was thinking here (or at least what I am thinking now).

It is true that shooting a small target and shooting a far away target are fundamentally the same problem; you need to hit something that has a small (angular) silhouette from your perspective.

The thing is that advantages that a laser (or, to a lesser extent, a properly used sniper rifle) has over, say, an assault rifle don't necessarily help directly with that. Instead they seem to largely be concerned with solving the problems that come specifically with trying to hit at long range.

Varyon, Anthony, and Iwcamp are talking about all these things (integral rangefinder, not worrying about wind or distorted light, no need to lead the target, image/mechanism stabilization) that make it easier to hit at long range, and I agree, but I don’t really see how any of it will help you hit someone running around 10 yards from you in the eye.

And of course I may just be revealing my profound ignorance of marksmanship...but in that case I really want to know what I’m missing!
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Old 07-25-2014, 10:33 AM   #28
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Default Re: Tweaking weapons and Armour for Space opera:

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If anyone is really worried about massive numbers of laser hits reduce Laser ROF. <shrug> Doc Smith's DeLameters were continuous beam weapons but not all classic SF rayguns were. This does makes lasers an even worse deal compared to advanced firearms.
How would you actually stat a continuous beam weapon in GURPS. Give it a ridiculously high ROF, make it a really really long jet? When it comes to my mind then continuous beam weapons are somewhat of a sci-fi classic.
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Old 07-25-2014, 10:44 AM   #29
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Default Re: Tweaking weapons and Armour for Space opera:

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How would you actually stat a continuous beam weapon in GURPS. Give it a ridiculously high ROF, make it a really really long jet? When it comes to my mind then continuous beam weapons are somewhat of a sci-fi classic.
The RoF 10 lasers in UT could well be continuous-beam. That's certainly how they were handled in 3rd edition - any automatic-fire laser weapon (RoF 4+) combined all the hits in one second together for the purpose of overcoming armor. Of course, that led to messy results and wildly variable armor penetration, so I'm glad things have been toned down. Now, whether a laser fires individual shots or a continuous beam is an aesthetic choice without additional in-game effects.

I wouldn't want to make lasers Jets because of the mechanics of such attacks in 4e. The rules for Jets seem pretty wonky to me, especially as you go up in range.
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Old 07-25-2014, 10:52 AM   #30
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Tweaking weapons and Armour for Space opera:

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How would you actually stat a continuous beam weapon in GURPS. Give it a ridiculously high ROF, make it a really really long jet? When it comes to my mind then continuous beam weapons are somewhat of a sci-fi classic.
Very high ROF s almost certainly _not_ the way to go in 4e. The 4e Rapid fire rules are designed to produce "realistic" amounts of misses when minimally humans shoots assault rifles at each other in poor lighting.

They make any high ROF weapon really sloppy and have it generally contaminate the hex row behind the intended target with the majority of the released energy be kinetic or electromagnetic or even parts of some more esoteric spectrum.

I don't have any entirely satisfactory solution. Perhaps give the weapon a "Controlled burst " setting and a "long burst" setting with each type being treated as ROF 1 but the long burst getting double damage and +1 to hit.
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