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Old 04-27-2020, 08:55 AM   #4721
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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
Except they already had one (Wilhelm ascended to the throne in 1861 and promptly got into a clash with the liberal leaning landtag). By 1860 nobody in their right mind could consider Prussia (or France or *particularly* Britain) anything close to noble dominated absolute monarchies. They all have strong legislatures that while not exactly bastions of working class power yet, are not going to let crown do anything it wants. To be sure Napoleon III has lately wrested some power back from his parlement (though largely by siding with "the people" against conservatives in the Assembly) and the clash between the crown and the landtag in Prussia will come to a critical point soon (in 1862) that will be sort of resolved in the crown's favor for a decade or two with the appointment of Bismarck as Minister President, but I doubt anybody at this point considered an *American* democratic example an issue - the rot had already set in across Europe by 1848, if not earlier.

Anyway at this point the US simply wasn't very important. Nobody in Europe is likely to compromise on the important rivalries - the ones with other European powers that actually *count* - to do anything in the Americas. Prussia (and France) is far more interested in the internal politics of the other German states than anything happening across the Atlantic. The British might care a little, but not to the extent of letting either France or Prussia have a free hand in Europe - preventing anybody from becoming a dominant power in Europe has been the focus of British foreign policy since at least the Armada right through to well, now more or less.

It's also not likely they would have considered a European pact a requirement for making meddling in the American Civil War feasible. It is what happens in the course of that war convinces the rest of the world that the Americans are worth taking seriously. A European power that had wanted to get in at the beginning would probably have thought it was a relatively minor commitment.
The only spark of decency I'm saying the king of Prussia had, was his deep contempt for the CSA. The Junkers overwhelmingly wanted to promote the destruction of the USA. But they didn't have the power or influence to challenge the king.

Louis Napoleon wanted to declare war on the USA, but needed a neutral Pussia and a friendly Britain to do so.

Britain wanted to break up America in order to expand the empire in the Americas. There are plenty of written statements by major British figures about crushing the pride of the Prutians of the USA and taking "the West" and California for Britain. But both the instability of the European situation and the fact that the working classes in Northern England, Scotland, Wales, and the entire population of Ireland, were pro-Union and wildly anti-slavery, meant that Britain needed allies they could trust in order to act. They never got them.

I simply tried to set up about the only situation were a serious Anglo-French invasion to aid the CSA could happen.

If an Anglo-French invasion of North America had been successful, France and Britain would soon have been at war over the spoils. Which would have pulled Russia, Prussia, Austria, the minor European powers, and the peoples of America into the war quickly.
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Old 04-27-2020, 09:12 AM   #4722
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Try this one...

The King of Prussia in the early 1860's loathed the CSA. It made him literally sick to his stomach to think of rebelling against a legitimate government for the right to own slaves. (The South published its reasons for succession, and made no bones about their motives).

Now the Junkers didn't care. They saw American democracy (flawed thought it was and is) as an existential threat to both monarchy and the Noble order. Mainly because the existence of a functional democracy made it easy to question the worth of tradition to the masses. The Junkers wanted to go to war with the Union, or at least give France and Britain that opportunity.

Louis Napoleon certainly wanted to ally with Britain and the CSA to crush the USA and open the Americas to imperialist expansion. The UK's power elites also wanted to break up the USA both to end pressure to democratize and to expand their empire's power in the Americas.

However, with the Prussian King and the Russian Czar ( the Czar who freed the serfs) favouring the USA against the CSA and the Austrian Empire neutral, neither Louis nor the Brits felt free to attack the USA.

However, this Q6 world agents of Centrum have made it look like anti-monarchical radicals have blown up several members of the Prussian royal family, bringing a pro-junker archconservative to the throne. He's already reaching out to Louis Napoleon offering a non-aggression pact to him and the English.

Basically, Centrum is going for a power grab. The PCs would be agents either of Homeline or the Cabal trying to stop them.

Note: An Anglo-French invasion of the USA would likely sail to Canada and/or Mexico and invade by land.
The UK elites, at this point, don't particularly care about U.S. democratization. Far likelier is that the Trent Affair goes south big time. Rather than back down and release the CSA delegation without apology, the U.S. doubles down and Seward tells the U.K. that Captain Wilkes was acting on the orders of President Lincoln.

The U.K. will not stand for the affront and decides to recognize the CSA, somewhat against its better judgment. The U.S. is upset enough to keep the RMS Trent as contraband of war and to keep both the CSA delegation and the Trent's crew as prisoners. The U.K. is forced to issue an ultimatum, if the prisoners are not released forthwith, the U.K. will have no choice but to declare war on the USA and will make an alliance of convenience with the CSA for the war's duration. [The U.K. is repulsed by the CSA's stand on slavery and doesn't expect to continue the alliance in the post-war period, but for now, any port in a storm. The U.K. may find that its temporary alliance of expedience has become rather more permanent than originally expected in the post-war period, but who knows?]
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Old 04-27-2020, 09:13 AM   #4723
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The smart propaganda move isn't to talk up the CSA, but to talk down the union. That's a bit harder to counter.


Malloyd is right that serious land intervention in the Americas is going to end up as a serious mess, and will make Europe take the US more seriously. But I'm also not sure if continental intervention is actually necessary. How does the war go if England conducts a mostly naval war against the union, blocking their trade and ensuring southern trade routes remain open? And how does the rest of Europe respond to this opportunity?
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Old 04-27-2020, 09:20 AM   #4724
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In all honesty a Anglo-French Alliance to invade the United States in the mid-19th century sounds an awful lot like an Soviet-American Alliance to invade China in the 1970s. Possibly lots of adventure to be had, but hardly realistic.
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Old 04-27-2020, 12:33 PM   #4725
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And how does the rest of Europe respond to this opportunity?
I'd suggest that they'd go for that old stable, arms sales. If, as a result of the lifting of a Union blockade, the CSA is able to trade, there'd surely be an opportunity for various European arms manufacturers to try to get a slice of the CSA pie.
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Old 04-27-2020, 07:31 PM   #4726
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Throw in a cotton blight in the rest of the world and the CSA can stay economically relevant for a little longer.
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Old 04-28-2020, 09:11 AM   #4727
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I'd suggest that they'd go for that old stable, arms sales. If, as a result of the lifting of a Union blockade, the CSA is able to trade, there'd surely be an opportunity for various European arms manufacturers to try to get a slice of the CSA pie.

I'd have thought that messing around with overseas adventures while Britain is distracted would be more appealing than selling to a desperate but increasingly broke nation. I'm just not sure which ones people will want to try (France especially will try something). Not actually infringing on Britain's territory, just doing things they might make a insist on taking half of if they weren't already fighting a war.
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Old 04-28-2020, 11:23 AM   #4728
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I'd have thought that messing around with overseas adventures while Britain is distracted would be more appealing than selling to a desperate but increasingly broke nation. I'm just not sure which ones people will want to try (France especially will try something). Not actually infringing on Britain's territory, just doing things they might make a insist on taking half of if they weren't already fighting a war.
Or alternately doing things the Americans might object to if they weren't already fighting a war. Part of the reason I'm skeptical of European powers wanting to get involved in American affairs is that even if they took the US Monroe doctrine as a serious threat before (and I don't think they did all that much) they mostly stayed out of South, and western North, America even while the US was busy with the Civil War.
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Old 04-28-2020, 11:47 AM   #4729
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Or alternately doing things the Americans might object to if they weren't already fighting a war. Part of the reason I'm skeptical of European powers wanting to get involved in American affairs is that even if they took the US Monroe doctrine as a serious threat before (and I don't think they did all that much) they mostly stayed out of South, and western North, America even while the US was busy with the Civil War.

That's when the French invaded Mexico. Cinco de Mayo Commemorates a battle fought during the time frame of the civil war.
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Old 04-28-2020, 12:20 PM   #4730
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That's when the French invaded Mexico. Cinco de Mayo Commemorates a battle fought during the time frame of the civil war.
True. Hm, that actually was a nearly pan-European alliance (France, the UK, Spain and Austria-Hungary all were involved) and wasn't going all that well even before the end of the US Civil War. A pan-European invasion of the US might be even more of a disaster for Europe than I would have thought.
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