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Old 01-03-2023, 08:58 AM   #1
Stormcrow
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Default [UT] Built-in digital camera

Passive sensors are said to all incorporate a digital camera (GURPS Ultra-Tech, page 60). The reader is pointed to page 51. On page 51, in the section on "Digital Cameras and Camcorders," we see the flatcam, pocketcam, and portacam.

So if I buy myself a pair of infrared binoculars (page 61, 3 lbs), which digital camera is built into it? Presumably not a portacam: it's too heavy. The pocketcam has the same magnification as the infrared binoculars, so is it that? But if instead I buy infrared goggles, I can't go by magnification: they only magnify half as strongly as the flatcam.

And which camera is incorporated matters, as this changes the effective skill of Photography. (Similarly, I don't think you can judge by the quality bonus of the passive sensors and the digital cameras.)

Is there any way to be sure which digital camera the author meant to be included in each passive sensor?
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Old 01-03-2023, 09:04 AM   #2
Donny Brook
 
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Default Re: [UT] Built-in digital camera

Ultra-Tech is riddled with inconsistencies. It really should be thoroughly revised. In the mean time you'll have to make something up.
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Old 01-03-2023, 09:09 AM   #3
Tinman
 
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Default Re: [UT] Built-in digital camera

I think the intent is that all the passive sensors can record what they see not that they have a separate digital device built in.
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Old 01-03-2023, 09:14 AM   #4
Varyon
 
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Default Re: [UT] Built-in digital camera

My guess would be that it's basically just "You can take a digital video/picture of whatever you see through the optics." Optics probably don't have all the various filters and features of TL 9+ digital cameras; I'd probably count them as Basic Equipment (+0 to skill) for Photography and the like. If you want your binocs to have the same bells and whistles as a professional-grade camera, consider using the rules for Combination Gadgets.
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Old 01-03-2023, 09:17 AM   #5
Stormcrow
 
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Default Re: [UT] Built-in digital camera

I knew this was going to be the first answer. I appreciate you (Donny Brook) taking the time to respond, but it's not a helpful answer.

If the answer is "Ultra-Tech doesn't answer this question," that's fine. Is this definitely confirmed, or is this just an answer born of a general disregard for Ultra-Tech?

However, in general, while going through Ultra-Tech with a fine-toothed comb — I'm trying to write a complete GCA data file for it — I have so far found very few of these fabled inconsistencies. In fact, Ultra-Tech appears to be the most intricate and consistent of all the GURPS books I've studied. The reference to digital cameras in passive sensors is the very first time I haven't been able to pin down what the book is pointing to, and that's after going through the incredibly detailed Core Technologies chapter. Up to now, it all works perfectly.

I also started going through High-Tech and found it far less consistent in the way the various components interact with each other than in Ultra-Tech. There were many references that didn't lead anywhere specific or were forgotten quickly. For instance, in the Tech books, the listed weight of an item includes any power cells or batteries it uses. This works fine in Ultra-Tech, but in High-Tech the batteries sometimes weigh more than the item's listed weight.

Last edited by Stormcrow; 01-03-2023 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 01-03-2023, 09:21 AM   #6
Stormcrow
 
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Default Re: [UT] Built-in digital camera

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinman View Post
I think the intent is that all the passive sensors can record what they see not that they have a separate digital device built in.
Ooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh........!

I think I just answered my own question. This response pinged something in my brain, and I went looking...

Page 51: "Passive visual sensors (pp. 60–61) can be used as digital cameras, but camera systems produce higher-quality images."

So the answer is in the book. The built-in digital camera mentioned in the passive sensors is not one of the ones listed on page 51 but is of lesser-quality.

Thanks for the kick to get my brain working!
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Old 01-03-2023, 09:48 AM   #7
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Default Re: [UT] Built-in digital camera

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
However, in general, while going through Ultra-Tech with a fine-toothed comb — I'm trying to write a complete GCA data file for it — I have so far found very few of these fabled inconsistencies. In fact, Ultra-Tech appears to be the most intricate and consistent of all the GURPS books I've studied. The reference to digital cameras in passive sensors is the very first time I haven't been able to pin down what the book is pointing to, and that's after going through the incredibly detailed Core Technologies chapter. Up to now, it all works perfectly.
I think a lot of UT's bad reputation is largely-undeserved, although there are some issues off the top of my head. First off is that some of the gear is... underwhelming. Notably, I believe there are many personal firearms in UT that are outperformed by TL 8 (and even TL 7) firearms in HT, and the UT tanks are laughably underarmored. Next up are the power cells. These don't actually give any indication of how much energy they store (aside from the increase in REF as TL goes up), which honestly I'm ok with (I'd prefer numbers, but I understand keeping things vague and generic has its benefits). The issue there is that, while higher TL power cells obviously hold more energy, there's no guidance on how they'll perform with lower-TL devices (aside from "you need a converter or your flashlight asplode"). If I have a TL 10 IR-Vis laser using TL 12 power cells (with the former designed to use the latter - it's a TL 10 design meant for use at TL 12), does it only last for as many shots as it would using a TL 10 power cell (which I believe is the same as what a comparable graser would use), or does it last longer, given an IR-Vis laser is likely more efficient at TL 12 than a graser? There's also the questionable choice of having a lot of gear (clamshells come to mind) cost the same at each TL, despite enjoying large improvements in functionality (the above clamshells get markedly improved DR, yet cost the same - and considering starting cash goes up with TL, this means such gear becomes functionally less expensive as campaign TL goes up, despite performance increasing to match the TL). I believe there's also some guff about electromagnetic guns somehow getting APEP ammo for ridiculously-cheap.

But these are honestly fairly minor issues, and (aside from the power cell issue) more a question of taste than substance.
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Last edited by Varyon; 01-03-2023 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 01-03-2023, 10:36 AM   #8
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: [UT] Built-in digital camera

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I think a lot of UT's bad reputation is largely-undeserved, .
It seems (in terms or real issues) to be rooted almost entirely in the ammo weights for TL9 firearms. Those are incorrect and inconsistent and are rooted in a publishing error. There was a later and more correct manuscript but an earlier version got sent to the printers.

Other firearms issues are probably legacy issues. That 10mm machine pistol dates to (at least) the first ed. UT in the early 90s. UT2 a few years later was already playing catch up with Real World guns (some of which were introduced after the first appearance in Gurps of their closest counterpart).

The tanks thing is sour grapes about not having Ogres rather than comparatively more probable light tanks. Any perceived lack of armor is in the absence of a super-heavy Front armor facing which would have been easily avoided by mobile units fighting other mobile units. I seem to recall that the UT tanks (due to their Laminate/Electromagnetic armor) do stop 25mm HEAT to the sides and 64mm HEAT to the Front a their base TLs. Being able to resist 25mm HEAT might be their best claim for a reason to exist.
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Old 01-03-2023, 11:18 AM   #9
Anthony
 
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Default Re: [UT] Built-in digital camera

The other problem for tanks is a legacy issue with the performance of explosives -- REF 4 at TL 9 and REF 6 at TL 10 doesn't match up with the improvements in other conventional weapons, and this also shows up in warheads (TL 8 LAW: 14.7 lb, 6dx6(10), single use. TL 9 IML: 4 lb, 6dx7(10), reusable).
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Old 01-03-2023, 11:38 AM   #10
Varyon
 
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Default Re: [UT] Built-in digital camera

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
It seems (in terms or real issues) to be rooted almost entirely in the ammo weights for TL9 firearms. Those are incorrect and inconsistent and are rooted in a publishing error. There was a later and more correct manuscript but an earlier version got sent to the printers.
Honestly, I may have gotten into GURPS after this issue was fixed (or at the very least didn't look too closely at ammo weights before it was fixed); the main things I remember about ammo issues are a) the previously-mentioned problem of electromagnetic guns getting dirt-cheap APEP as default and b) I think one of the rifles has an unrealistic magazine capacity, but that was to match the Pulse Rifles from Aliens. Oh, and the weirdness of gyrocs getting much higher price multiplier for being homing than traditional bullets do (because you have to turn the gyroc into a micromissile first, and those cost a lot more than the normal gyroc rounds).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Other firearms issues are probably legacy issues. That 10mm machine pistol dates to (at least) the first ed. UT in the early 90s. UT2 a few years later was already playing catch up with Real World guns (some of which were introduced after the first appearance in Gurps of their closest counterpart).
It's also not like Mr Pulver could have looked at his issue of 4e HT to see how his TL 9+ firearms matched up with those, as that book didn't exist when UT came out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
The tanks thing is sour grapes about not having Ogres rather than comparatively more probable light tanks. Any perceived lack of armor is in the absence of a super-heavy Front armor facing which would have been easily avoided by mobile units fighting other mobile units. I seem to recall that the UT tanks (due to their Laminate/Electromagnetic armor) do stop 25mm HEAT to the sides and 64mm HEAT to the Front a their base TLs. Being able to resist 25mm HEAT might be their best claim for a reason to exist.
I mean, you don't have to go up to OGRE sized - over in the mecha thread, we found that simply scaling a TL 7 T-72 up to TL 9 gets you side armor over 50% greater than what the UT tanks have, and markedly higher front armor (in fact, the upscaled T-72's top armor is at around the same level as the UT tank's side armor). But in a threat environment where it's hard to avoid getting attacked places other than the front, you probably would see armored vehicles going more for overall armor rather than concentrating it - and it may well be that the increased mobility you'd get from the comparatively-light armor on the UT tank is more worthwhile than the heavier armor on a less-maneuverable tank would be (particularly with breakpoints in mind - I'm away from my books, but if that upscaled T-72's side armor is still susceptible to 40mm, and the next step up from 64mm HEAT is enough to punch through its frontal armor, there's no good reason not to scale things back to just resist 25mm from the side and 64mm from the front - in this case, beefier armor may not accomplish much for you at GURPS resolutions).

As I said, I think a lot of the UT's "issues" (at least now that various errors that were present at publication have been fixed) are more a matter of taste than substance.
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