Electric Vs. Gas

[Daimyo_Shi]

Yes in the period the 80's that Car Wars create there was some clear research issues and several unknowns factors were no know and I able to fiddle in the lore a fair bit with the new knowledge like the Oil stand being the second biggest oil reserve in the world. Alberta is very powerful and Gas is relative common, maybe even more common that the Oil States. I still working large chucks of the campaign I am building.

[43Supporter]

Gas-engine weight wasn't a problem -- in fact, it was remarkably accurate. The problem was performance; even after the weight increase, there was really no reason to use electrics past about Division 20. The "go-to" engine for most of my time was a 150cid with a turbo; it would move a Luxury or Pickup to at least 60 MPH, which was more than enough for most arenas. A better solution would have been to add 50% to the *cost*, which would have reserved gasburners to the upper-register Divisions.

As to sources for fuel: People are *making* fuel from all sorts of stuff -- the Midwest with all those cows (methane; bio-diesel); the US Navy is using algae to make Jet-A; and so on. The problem: Most of this just wasn't being done in the 1980s, as oil was relatively cheap (there's that pic out there of a crashed airliner at Burbank Airport, with a gas station in the background; the fuel price is something like $0.89/gallon...). It's only now folks are starting to develop "alternative fuels".

One of NOVA's projects which never quite got off the ground was a supplement detailing various alternatives to Oil-based Gasoline -- bio-diesel and such. It would have utterly demolished the background, though.

[Daimyo_Shi]

I am interest in that last comment, I understand the Arena comment but gas in everything else? I fully admit I not an Arena designers but I agree with that top speed being meaningless above 60 MPH in the Arena. [Despite this I still over PP/engine everything.]

[swordtart]

The solution to the gas "problem" if one even existed was the fuel.

There was never supposed to be a shortage of engines, and engines didn't suddenly become massively less efficient than they were in the real world. A 150 CID engine should be capable of reaching well over 100 MPH if fitted in most cars.

If there is NO oil then you are forced to use other fuels (methane, ethanol, biodiesel). These generally come with disadvantages (bulkier storage, less efficient, more flammable or a combination of these). These would tend to make them less competitive in an arena car than a conventional gasoline vehicle, but not necessarily less competitive than an electric vehicle.

Electric might be more competitive for consumer vehicles and as a result mass production might drive the cost of electric engines down, reducing demand for non-electric engines and thus driving their price up as it becomes a niche production.

If you allow gasoline engines the cost of fuel makes then uncompetitive for consumer vehicles. In an arena you need very little fuel and the cost is negligible (even if you enforce the 200 mile range requirement). Drive that same vehicle for 200 miles a day as a courier and that cost soon adds up. If you can generate your own electricity at home your running costs for an electric plant is effectively free.

The other disadvantage that should impact is maintenance costs. Electric engines should be largely maintenance free. Gas engines should require frequent maintenance. The cost would be recurrent and this another disadvantage for consumers. Maintenance isn't part of CW and even in GURPS is it a fixed percentage of the original purchase cost.

So you could justify doubling the cost of gas engines (even alternative fuel versions) with justification. That wouldn't stop them being arena specials but their use as daily drives and couriers would be limited to areas where there was a cheaper fuel available.

[swordtart]

The other issue is what IS a gas plant.

Does it provide kinetic output or electrical (i.e. a source of torque or an electricity generator). The game is a bit inconsistent. In some areas it implies that a gas engine provides kinetic output (i.e. it cannot provide power to high energy electronics). In other places it is treated identically to an electric plant (Wheels were supposed to include the electric motors as well, if that is true then if gas plants are kinetic they should use different wheels).

Of course we are not really sure what an electric plant is either. The game talks about fuel cells, but nothing in the game seems to support this. In effect it just a massive battery (and the weight seems to support that). What is a laser battery. It provides PUs but no PF. Oddly the game considers lasers to be higher drain than the motors, so why can't the battery provide the current for them (making them a potential emergency power source).

Best not to dig too deep.

[svawter]

late in the game they corrected some of the issues with electric power plant acceleration issues:

http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=2211
High Torque Motors (HTM, +5 and especially Heavy Duty HTM: DOUBLED!) but these drop top speed too much to build a Tesla in Car Wars 😃

Originally Posted by Daimyo_Shi

So the Eletric Vs. Gas has always puzzled me, I never played Dueltrack in it original form so I only familiar Gas from the Compendium Era onwards. Because of this I never been sure what gas engines were suppose to well. Acceleration is figured the same way [Yes I realize there are a couple modifications that push this beyond what Electric can do.] But the top speed formula heavily favours electric with equal power factors and weight.



Car Wars Compendium p. 73

The only advantages I can see is Varity of Engines, which may allow better Ratio with Cars and a sometime space advantage if you tweek you Gas tank and engine just right. There is a weight advantage 300 CID for sure but you really start trading spaces at that point instead. The Three Biggest have great top speeds but you trade space for that. maybe I just don't have the right experence with it. Thoughts and comment?

[juris]

Agree HT motors were necessary for 'balance' in the arena - probably the best solution. On the track it made electrics even better racers - in addition to the high top speed they now had an AC of 20 - you just had to turn them off once you started taking engine damage.

It continues to annoy me that a 150 cid engine (3 space engine - 375 lbs!) with a turbo and a 5 gallon tank is enough to power a lux arena tank car. This should never have happened.

I don't think the designers of Duel Track had exploiter vehicles like this in mind. They were clearly only thinking of high-end gas burners:

Boom Stick -- Pickup, Extra-Heavy chassis, Light suspension, 100 cid engine, 5-gal Duelling Tank, Heavy-Duty Transmission, 6 Steelbelted Puncture-Resistant tires, Driver w/SWC and BA and 10-pt CA, 2 Linked Anti-Tank Guns Front each w/10 shots APFSDS, Oil Discharger Back, Composite Metal/Fireproof Plastic Armor: F13/8, L10/6, R10/6, B10/5, T0/5, U0/5, 2 10-pt Fireproof Wheelguards Back, 2 10-pt Fireproof Wheelhubs Front, Acceleration 2.5, Top Speed 32.5, HC 0, 7800 lbs., $19980

Originally Posted by svawter

late in the game they corrected some of the issues with electric power plant acceleration issues:

http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=2211
High Torque Motors (HTM, +5 and especially Heavy Duty HTM: DOUBLED!) but these drop top speed too much to build a Tesla in Car Wars ��

[swordtart]

A 2007 2.5 litre (152 cid) turbo Ford Modeo has a curb side weight of 3289lb and can do 0-70 in 7 second (Acc 10). It has a top speed of 152 mph.

The same engine in a CW vehicle of that weight (even without including the driver) has an ACC of 10/15 but a top speed of only 100.

If we go old school the Mk3 Ford Escort has a 1.6L turbo engine (100 CID). Its 0-60 is just under 9 seconds (Acc 6). Kerbside weight is 2100lb. Top Speed was 128. CW gives a Acc of 10/15 but a top speed of 102.5

Renault Espace 2l (120 CID - hard to do in CW) carburettor non-turbo. Kerb side weight 2700lb. 0-60 just under 12s (Acc 5) top speed 100. CW 100 CID Acc 5 top speed 67.5. CW 150 CID Acc 10 top speed 87.5

Of course there is more to performance than the engine size. Turbos shouldn't give a flat 5 Acc boost. Maybe some of the cars above should have benefited from streamlining. Acc is not generally linear. Manual transmissions should impact your ability to accelerate.

It's all rather random. The main thing is that we actually knew what gas performance was in the 1980's but couldn't get it right. Electric performance was a complete guess.

[43Supporter]

This is why I wish I had known more about BBSes back then -- not only do I know the tech, and how it was advancing; but I know how to render it down to a game rule....

[juris]

Realism is overrated :)

I do like the goals of 6e. Doesn't seem like 6e is distinguishing between gas and electric (yet)

Originally Posted by 43Supporter

This is why I wish I had known more about BBSes back then -- not only do I know the tech, and how it was advancing; but I know how to render it down to a game rule....