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Old 10-08-2015, 01:00 PM   #1
Edges
 
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Default [DF] What's worked? What hasn't?

Salutations All,

I'm considering starting up a Dungeon Fantasy campaign using most of the supplements in that line. I have read most of the books and some related Pyramid articles. I'm looking for advice from those who have played it. I am particularly interested in any pitfalls that may have been encountered and in house rules that have been used either successfully or unsuccessfully.

Some areas that I am curious about:
  • Were there any particular supplements that you felt were indispensable? Were there any that you found problematic or unnecessary for your game?
  • How rigidly have you stuck to the templates? Have you encountered players who felt restricted by them and if so, how did you handle it?
  • I have heard claims that some templates tend to dominate combat and make things less fun for the others (specifically the Scout and Swashbuckler but there may be others). Have you found there to be any truth to these claims? If so, how would you suggest addressing them?
  • What templates have you allowed/disallowed and why?
  • Have you developed any custom templates?
  • Have you used The Last Gasp with DF? How does it interact with magic?
  • Do you have any custom Magic Styles to share?
  • I have heard that some spells in GURPS Magic can be problematic. Do you have any warnings for me when it comes to DF?
  • Have you used alternate magic systems in DF? How did it go?
  • Have you used the Extra Effort rules as written? Were you happy with the results?
  • Do you use the armor from Basic or Low-Tech? Or do you house rule armor?
  • What, if anything, have you done to address the issue of ST-based weapons penetrating armor too easily? Is it worth it to do in DF?
  • What system(s) have you adopted for point awards? What would you recommend for someone who was raised on the "slow" advancement of AD&D?
  • How have you treated the purchase of enchanted items?
  • Have you used any harsh realism rule options (bleeding, etc.)? How did it go? Did it bog things down too much for DF?
  • How has healing gone? Have you used any optional/house rules for it? In actual play, are HP and healing spells the object of resource management that they seem to be intended to be? How do you treat healing potions?
Please don't be limited by the above list. I am interested in discussing any ideas you have on the subject.

Also, is there an index somewhere of published DF material? Which Pyramid issues contain which DF articles? (A sentence or two on what each article contains at a glance would be awesome.)

Thanks in advance y'all. I really appreciate the thoughtful input this forum has to offer.

Last edited by Edges; 10-08-2015 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 10-08-2015, 01:08 PM   #2
DouglasCole
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Default Re: [DF] What's worked? What hasn't?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post
I am particularly interested in any pitfalls that may have been encountered and in house rules that have been used either successfully or unsuccessfully.

Some areas that I am curious about:
  • Have you used The Last Gasp with DF? How does it interact with magic?
  • Have you used the Extra Effort rules as written? Were you happy with the results?
  • Do you use the armor from Basic or Low-Tech? Or do you house rule armor?
  • What, if anything, have you done to address the issue of ST-based weapons penetrating armor too easily? Is it worth it to do in DF?
The Last Gasp and the "weapons penetrating armor" rules are both in place to add realism, pacing, or more-low-key aspects to melee fights.

This hasn't been what the DF games I've played in have been about. Being able to do gonzo damage or strike many times in a round are part of the expected set of character abilities (again: in the games I've played). Tamping those down may not be well received.

The issue of "too much damage through armor" is most frequently stated in terms of "versus firearms." If you're not comparing a 3d+8 axe blow to an M16, then you probably will have less "that's unrealistic!" and more "that's totally freakin' awesome!" moments.

If what you're looking for is to have a more gritty flavored dungeon exploration game, then TLG and the damage/armor stuff may well be a better fit.
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Old 10-08-2015, 01:36 PM   #3
mlangsdorf
 
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Default Re: [DF] What's worked? What hasn't?

I've run two long-running (40+ sessions each) online games with DF, and another F2F game that ran through all of Mirror of the Fire Demon and another dozen sessions of homebrew after that. I've played in two long-running DF games online, and another short one face to face. So I have some experience relevant to your questions.

For the supplements, Dungeons is the GM's basic reference, and Monsters (1 and 2) Henchmen, Psi, Summoners, and Allies are each useful for mining for monsters. Treasure Tables often tended to be more trouble than it was worth, and I never used anything from Artifacts. Adventurers, Ninjas, and Sages are excellent articles from the player side, but I never got much out of Clerics, Sages, or Taverns, and I think the templates in Summoners are often a bit odd.

I never stuck too rigidly to templates, and dealt with player dissatisfaction by modifying them or creating new lenses to add options. I don't think templates should be straitjackets, and I'm only minimally interested in "reproducing an old school feel" or whatever.

I think I'm one of the chief proponents of the theory that the Swashbuckler and Scout tend to overshadow the other templates in a game that involves fighting primitive humanoids in dank dungeons. My solution is make my games about more than that: exploration and physical challenges and varied opponents (homogeneous for the Scout, mind-controllers for the Swashbuckler) force those templates to spend their earned CP on things other than "more destruction!" Of course, then the wizard starts to intrude into everyone else's niche, but I have house rules for that, too.

GURPS Magic is generally problematic. Every group has its own big offenders, but Missile Shield, Reverse Missiles, Great Haste, Grease, Shape Earth, and Air-Walk all tend to come up a lot. Peter Dell'Orto has a reasonable set of advisories on his blog.

I've also used Divine Favor (which is great and think is highly recommended) and RPM (which I personally hate but your mileage may vary). I like Threshold magic with generous thresholds over FP magic (and have house rules about that...) I haven't played a game with the Sorcery rules yet but I'm looking forward to them.

I do use Extra Effort, pretty much as written, except I disallowed Heroic Charge. I used Heroic Charge for a while, but I feel it turns every fight into a dogfight as Swashbucklers move 7+ hexes to run behind their foes and murder them, and I didn't like that. Everything else was fine: Heroic Charge is the problem.

I house rule armor. I think everyone should use my house rules. They go some of the way to limiting armor overpenetration, but honestly, half-ogre weapon masters are available out of the gate and will penetrate any armor you can imagine, so I don't know how useful of a goal that even is.

I've used a couple of different systems for buying magic items. The best is random availability of useful items and the option to inexpensively transfer enchantments from one item to another (so a Puissant Battle Axe +3 can become a Puissant Longsword +3 if that's the weapon someone prefers to use). I generally make potions and one use items cheaper, and don't allow Quick and Dirty enchantments. I have some tentative houserules for repricing magic items in general, but nothing I'm ready to share. Even so, cheap Cornucopia Quivers take an element away from the game, and the divide between "cheap armor with Q&D enchantments" and "nice armor with S&S enchantments" is so vast that the nice armor almost always ends up getting sold, which is stupid.

I don't use the Last Gasp or any harsh realism rules. I'd have a player revolt on my hands, and I suspect they'd slow the game down too much.

Feel free to browse http://westmarchsaga.wikia.com/wiki/...Westmarch_Wiki and http://westmarchsaga.wikia.com/wiki/...est_March_Game for more house rules that may or may not be useful to you, as well as session reports and the like.
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Old 10-08-2015, 02:04 PM   #4
Kromm
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Default Re: [DF] What's worked? What hasn't?

I have a few comments stemming from the (very) long-running fantasy campaign that inspired GURPS Dungeon Fantasy and served as a testbed for the supplements I wrote alone or with Peter (DF 1-4, 6, 11, 14-16, and DFM 1-2).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post

Were there any particular supplements that you felt were indispensable? Were there any that you found problematic or unnecessary for your game?
I'd call DF 1-2 "essential" if you plan to use any of the other supplements in the series.

As my campaign's power level rose, I felt a strong need to invent the content that now appears in DF 6 and 11, and the scariest critters in DFM 1-2. I'm glad I did! If you plan to keep the power level low, though, those selfsame supplements might prove less useful or even useless to you.

Personally, I'm not a fan of "pets" for adventurers and so never had any use for the stuff in DF 5 or 9. I also don't mix psi with my fantasy, despite having written DF 14.

Oh, and I think DF 16 is absolutely essential if your campaign is more about roaming the world than raiding dungeons, which mine was.

And DF 15 is a good idea, too, if in eschewing supernatural and summoned "pets" – as I did – you create a need for PCs to retain NPCs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post

I have heard claims that some templates tend to dominate combat and make things less fun for the others (specifically the Scout and Swashbuckler but there may be others). Have you found there to be any truth to these claims? If so, how would you suggest addressing them?
That sounds like a problem in campaigns where your enemies are all basically mundane mortals (humans, elves, orcs, ogres, etc., as well as big animals) who die easily from having holes poked in them. That wasn't my campaign.

Yes, I had lots of fights with human bad guys – and yes, those favored PCs with high weapon skill and impaling weapons. But most of the fights that mattered were with horrors who had many and varied forms of Injury Tolerance, or who were ghostly, shadowy, or otherwise not material. I used a lot of undead – corporeal and incorporeal – as well as demons and magical automatons.

Just as important, I threw in a lot of social and leadership situations that would be dominated by what DF calls the bard, or at least a holy warrior or knight with lots of Born War Leader and Tactics. I also presented puzzles and research challenges worthy of very capable artificers and scholars. In fact, I'm pathologically incapable of not doing that. :P

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I have heard that some spells in GURPS Magic can be problematic. Do you have any warnings for me when it comes to DF?
I'd strongly advise that you get Pyramid #3/60: Dungeon Fantasy III and use "Wizardry Refined."

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Originally Posted by Edges View Post

Have you used the Extra Effort rules as written? Were you happy with the results?
Quite a few of those were tested in my campaign, too. I was happy with all of them. I think the dislike some have for Heroic Charge is tied to the overuse of easily impaled humanoid foes. Against greater demons that take dozens of telling hits to take down, and spirits that can just fade into the floor or teleport away, that option didn't really change the face of battle in my game. Its main effect was to let those who invested in extra Basic Speed and Basic Move instead of extra ST (everybody had lots of DX!) have fun in fights vs. mooks.

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Originally Posted by Edges View Post

Do you use the armor from Basic or Low-Tech? Or do you house rule armor?
My campaign used armor from the Basic Set, and DF was written and balanced assuming that armor. Use other armor rules at your own risk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post

What, if anything, have you done to address the issue of ST-based weapons penetrating armor too easily? Is it worth it to do in DF?
Hack 'n' slash is more fun if you leave this alone. Armor isn't the DR you care about anyway. If you use a proper mix of foes, it's natural DR that matters . . . and you can tweak that to be whatever you want on an Elder Thing with a cosmic force field.

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Originally Posted by Edges View Post

What system(s) have you adopted for point awards? What would you recommend for someone who was raised on the "slow" advancement of AD&D?
I gave out about 2 points/session plus 10 points whenever a major plot arc was closed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post

How have you treated the purchase of enchanted items?
My setting had no magical economy at all. All magic items were found and not easily sold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post

How has healing gone? Have you used any optional/house rules for it? In actual play, are HP and healing spells the object of resource management that they seem to be intended to be? How do you treat healing potions?
Healing was the main limit on PC combat might in my campaign. Once "per person per day" penalties got scary on Healing spells and the Healing advantage, everybody got very, very cautious.

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Originally Posted by Edges View Post

Also, is there an index somewhere of published DF material? Which Pyramid issues contain which DF articles?
Start with the GURPS Dungeon Fantasy page and be sure to scroll through the whole thing.
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Old 10-08-2015, 02:19 PM   #5
A Ladder
 
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Default Re: [DF] What's worked? What hasn't?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post
  • How rigidly have you stuck to the templates? Have you encountered players who felt restricted by them and if so, how did you handle it?
.
My group uses templates as guidelines or just idea starters. We've never used them "by the book" and freely modify and add traits wherever we see fit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post
  • I have heard claims that some templates tend to dominate combat and make things less fun for the others (specifically the Scout and Swashbuckler but there may be others). Have you found there to be any truth to these claims? If so, how would you suggest addressing them?
  • What templates have you allowed/disallowed and why?
.
The Swashbuckler in my campaign did dominate combat. However, that was when we just started using GURPS and I was not familiar with all the rules. Parrying giant clubs with sabres should result in said sabres breaking. If you're aware of how to counter abilities then it should be fine.

Bards with Mind Control sucks. I have banned Mind Control in all my games from now till forever. It just takes all the fun out of roleplaying. It has been abused way too often and with no way out except for me to plant Will 20 NPCs everywhere, which also takes all the fun out of purchasing a trait if it's only allowable when the GM permits it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post
  • I have heard that some spells in GURPS Magic can be problematic. Do you have any warnings for me when it comes to DF?
  • Have you used alternate magic systems in DF? How did it go?
.
I changed my magic system over to Magic as Powers long ago (before Sorcery) and have since changed that over to Sorcery when it came out. Since the way to build Powers is typically more balanced than Vanilla Magic, I've not had any problems since the switch.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post
  • Do you use the armor from Basic or Low-Tech? Or do you house rule armor?
  • What, if anything, have you done to address the issue of ST-based weapons penetrating armor too easily? Is it worth it to do in DF?
.
Basic. Never had a complaint.
I've found with the Layering armor rules, cheap DR levels and buffing magic that it's actually quite hard to deal damage to creatures. If you don't like how much damage your ST-based PCs are doing, add another layer of armor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post
  • What system(s) have you adopted for point awards? What would you recommend for someone who was raised on the "slow" advancement of AD&D?
.
I am of the "Fast" advancement mindset. I award 5 CP every session. Then award bonus CP based on what the PCs did. This is not "goal" oriented. I ask "What did you guys do that was worth points?" and then they tell me. Points are awarded for awesomely acomplishing goals. Did they rescue the princess by just defeating the guards? No points. If they used subterfuge with careful plots of how to infiltrate the squad, steal the keys, and had a griffin stolen and waiting as a get away vehicle...worth points.

Also, anything that was totally cool gets CP. Swinging from chandeleers to strike down foes is a worthy goal.

I find that "fast" advancement is more fun. PC's can gain crazy cool abilities faster and seem to really "level up" every other session. This is more fun for me and my players. YMMV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post
  • How has healing gone? Have you used any optional/house rules for it? In actual play, are HP and healing spells the object of resource management that they seem to be intended to be? How do you treat healing potions?
.
My players typically hire healing clerics that have the Healing Advantage (who die during adventures) and shell out tons for healing potions. It's a really mild form of resource management. Nobody wants to play a "healer", but we've had a few players who picked up Alchemy (for brewing healing potions) and a few who purchased the Healing advantage.

as to the clerics we've had: a basic cleric from MotFD (eaten by a demon in the end), Brother Mainard (called Mayonaise) a 250 point cleric I used from Adventurers (died in the desert from something, probably an orc), Friar Tuck (a 125 point cleric) (lived!), Saint Patrick (burned up by lava), Saint Sick (Zombie cleric) ("drowned" at sea), Saint D**K (A mean Saint Patrick) (knocked a PC unconcious and then had his throat slit), another cleric that shot harpoon guns (I think this guy lived, but probably died fighting pirates), Paedric (Thief Cleric) (died in end boss fight at campaign end).
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Old 10-08-2015, 08:40 PM   #6
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Default Re: [DF] What's worked? What hasn't?

I'm running a DF game, which has been going for just over 2 years, but very sporadically. (Only about 15 sessions.)

The most valuable GURPS books have been DF1-3, DF 15, DFM1, and Magic. Also the DF Pyramid issues. And the Pyramid with underwater combat rules. (There's some water in the dungeon, but the PCs have mostly avoided it.) Haven't really used much out of the other DF books. DF16 looks good but our game doesn't have much wilderness (yet). I'm running a converted D&D 3.5 megadungeon, so the D&D monster conversions on the GURPS Wiki have been great, as have the various D&D SRD sites.

The starting PCs were right off the templates. The players were fine with that.

Our group is small, so I'm not very concerned with niche protection since there's plenty of screen time for everyone. The group is Knight, Wizard, Cleric, and an NPC fighter they rescued and adopted as an honorary PC. The Knight is way better at combat than everyone else, at least when fighting things that are vulnerable to cutting damage, but that's okay since that's her job. (She's also good at Forced Entry. And identifying which weapons are treasure. And lifting heavy things.) The Wizard is good at everything (IQ 15 is kind of silly), except fighting things that don't burn. The Cleric is good at Healing, reading obscure things (Gift of Letters), talking to monsters (Gift of Tongues), finding secret doors (See Secrets), and turning undead. The fighter is built on way fewer points than everyone else and so isn't super-effective at anything, but helps keep the monsters off the squishier PCs.

I didn't explicitly disallow any templates but I encouraged the players to stick with the basics the first time around.

I haven't used Last Gasp with DF. I don't think it really fits the genre. I think the way it would interact with Magic would be to make mages less effective since magic burns FP and Last Gasp gives another place where it's needed.

A lot of spells in Magic are ill-defined and a few are kind of broken. I encourage using the prereqs lists from Pyramid 3/60 if you want to keep Wizards from taking Minor Healing "as a prerequisite" and upstaging the Clerics. (Or not, if you don't have any Clerics and want to keep the PCs alive.)

I've avoided Extra Effort. Because it's extra stuff to track and my players aren't tacticians.

We use the armor from Basic. Fortify +1 and Lighten 25% are really cheap, so all the PCs used them on their starting armor.

I don't have a problem with high ST penetrating armor. If you paid for ST 16, you deserve to kick ass. This does mean that high-ST enemies are very dangerous, but they should be. This is why I encourage PCs to buy Luck and save it for emergencies.

I tend to give about 4 CP per PC per session, half for the NPC. Occasional bonuses for major accomplishments.

My players almost always spend the CP immediately rather than saving up. So they tend to pick up things that are cheap, like putting 1 or 2 points in a missing utility skill (Observation, Search, Traps, Gesture, Hiking, Merchant, etc.), learning new languages at Broken, buying a HP, buying a level of Lifting ST to avoid being encumbered, etc. I let PCs buy any skill that they've practiced in play, regardless of templates, which encourages picking up skills that can be practiced at default. To avoid wizards buying 4 new spells every session and ending up with huge spell lists the player can't remember, I only let wizards add new spells if they've found a scroll or spellbook or teacher.

I let PCs start with magic items, but nobody bought Wealth or piled lots of points into cash, so that just meant minor armor enchantments and a staff with the Staff spell. There's a wizard in town who sells potions and recharges power items. No better items have been available for sale; they've all been found in the dungeon, except for one that was given as a quest reward. In practice this means the PCs have been slowly accumulating cash since they don't have much to spend it on; maybe I need to start introducing more cool things to buy.

We don't use any harsh realism rules. Doesn't really fit the genre IMO.

Healing isn't a big problem because the group has a Cleric who's good at it. Plus each PC carries a healing potion or two. In practice, a Cleric with Minor and Major Healing-16 can fix up the whole party in a few hours, if no wandering monsters interrupt his rest.

My house rules:

No piece armor enchantment, to avoid silliness like helmets and gloves being dirt-cheap to enchant. Do the whole suit at once.

Mage spell list from Pyramid 3/60

The only rules from MA we use are committed / defensive / telegraphic attack, slip/sideslip, the bigger weapon table, multiple blocks, and allowing weapons with reach longer than C to be used in close combat at a penalty.

Illiteracy does not count against the disad limit (but all the PCs so far have been literate).

No choosing to roll on the random hit location table.

Relative SM is in play, meaning a SM-1 creature gets +1 to hit SM 0 humans.

Signature Gear costs double, once for the money and once for the plot protection. (So nobody takes Signature Gear when they really just wanted more stuff.)

I let players cash in attributes when upgrading, as long as nothing goes down. For example, you can pay 2 CP for +1 HP, then 3 CP for +1 Lifting ST, then 5 CP and trade in the others for +1 ST.

Town is not abstract in our game: it's got a name, a map, and a bunch of well-defined NPCs, a few of whom are now the PCs' friends. The PCs probably spend a quarter of their play time there, mostly just talking to people.
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Old 10-09-2015, 07:44 AM   #7
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Default Re: [DF] What's worked? What hasn't?

Quote:
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[*]Were there any particular supplements that you felt were indispensable? Were there any that you found problematic or unnecessary for your game?
DF-1 and DF-11 are quite useful, imo. At least for my games, we heavily use Martial Arts (At least how we play, you can't make a competitive archer/thrower without the added rules in here and also many other awesome stuff like improved rules for Rapid Strike, Techniques...), Low-Tech: Instant Armor (We dig the granularity and added options presented here) and Basic, obviously

Quote:
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[*]How rigidly have you stuck to the templates? Have you encountered players who felt restricted by them and if so, how did you handle it?
We don't use templates at all. That said, since I had 2 new players (1 never played GURPS before) I told them to look at the templates just so they knew what were the main points their characters sheets should have and be about.

From there I worked with them to get their individual characteristics and such, preserving the core of what "role" they wanted to represent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post
[*]I have heard claims that some templates tend to dominate combat and make things less fun for the others (specifically the Scout and Swashbuckler but there may be others). Have you found there to be any truth to these claims? If so, how would you suggest addressing them?
See...how funny things are...in my games normally people DON'T want to be mobile-impaling-fighters, because we tend to consider them _lackluster_.
Much like Kromm, my setting has much of the "opposition" being mythical monsters, beings from the Void, demons/devils, extraplanars, spirits, undeads, elementals of sorts, constructs, psicometabolic enhanced humanoids without nerves or feelings, and much, much more on this line which makes this type of combatant somewhat underrated in these situations.

That said, not only I make sure to balance the campaign flow and encounters that they manage to encounter humanoid-types of Bads so that they can shine but also to make these type of characters shine and be useful in another situations, going beyond strict combat effectiveness.
Our current swashbuckler type is a party-hard-seductor-singer and the player actually has more fun and considers more highly when he manages good scenes and returns off-combat (he actually keeps a tracking score of...ahem..."done" targets). He's also the groups face often times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post
[*]What templates have you allowed/disallowed and why?
Templates will follow your setting and rules. Or should. None of them have an intrinsic flaw or OPness that would warrant a straight ban like that.
If you don't want to deal with spirits, nature spells and summoning...don't allow Druid template, for example.
Or don't want players dealing with magic, don't allow Wizard, Druid, Bard...and so on.

Quote:
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[*]Have you developed any custom templates?
Not really. Don't use them.

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Originally Posted by Edges View Post
[*]Have you used The Last Gasp with DF? How does it interact with magic?
Never used The Last Gasp, yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post
[*]Do you have any custom Magic Styles to share?
Yes, I do have 5 different magical systems in my world:

- My "true" magical workers that can see reality raw matrix use a mix between Path/Books with RPM magic, of sorts;
- Quintessentials, which are basically my setting elementalists, use Powers-as-spells following 5 primary Elements;
- 2 ancient races developed an intricate language capable of performing magic, using Magic base system structure with many spell cuts and/or modifications;
- Half-spirit race has access to a very small list of spells/rituals that allow to commune and bargain with spirits to perform magic for them;
- Universal planar ritual magic, capable of being done by anyone if they can gather the materials, be in the right places in the right times;


Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post
[*]I have heard that some spells in GURPS Magic can be problematic. Do you have any warnings for me when it comes to DF?
I find these to be the most problematic ones in one way or another, so either ban or modify them:

All "Body of" spells (many inconsistencies, like what you can carry, what you actually gain with them...)
Air Vortex
All Missile spells (Either mages can't compete with archers and fighters or they have so much FP/ER they can nuke bomb stuff, needs tweaking)
All Shapeshifting Spells (Just watch Gorilla-arms barbarians and similar, but I use it in my games)
Shrink/Enlarge spells (Normally 2 cheap for the gains)
Enchantment spells (Brake DF, basically)
Possession Spells (Players can start jumping bodies for extra stats or dominating other players or NPCs...)
All Jet Spells (I completely redone the mechanics of Jet spells because their descriptions is fuzzy, at best)
The "Gate" School (remove from game for easy...can bypass most encounters or stuff you throw at players)
Regeneration Spells (Careful, otherwise players loose the sense of danger if they can recover from anything)
Resurrection (Normally a setting definition...can or cannot res?)
Divination (I don't mind, but some GMs have problems with this)
Drain Mana (Can get funky if players decide to be a pita)
Telecast (brake spell mechanic rules which can be a hassle)
Hang Spell (needs attention, but I like it and allow in my games)
Maintain Spell (needs attention, but I like it and allow in my games)
Throw Spell (needs attention, but I like it and allow in my games)
Bless (It's basically +1 for everything that matters for the players...do you want or do not them to have that?)
Suspend Magery (usually reserve this kind of effect to more "roleplay moments" outside of mechanics)
Linking Spells (needs attention, but I like it and allow in my games)
Charm (needs attention, but I like it and allow in my games)
Enslave (needs attention, but I like it and allow in my games)
Flight Spells (gives A LOT of freedom and changes how encounters are tackled...handle with extra care)
Flying Carpet (same as Flight)
Great Haste (It's basically ATR with much less cost....it's a power creep and your players will reach a point where they can use it every encounter for everyone - I use in my games)
Ethereal Body (allow freedom, entrance in forbidden places...)
Teleport Spells (same as Flight)
Cloud-Walking/Vaulting spells (same as Flight, but a bit more restricted)
Missile Shield (Hinders bows/throw useless...options I normally use are give good defense bonus to the caster or allow the caster a second defense roll against its effective level in this spell against projectiles or cap how much projectiles per turn it can protect...)
Reverse Missiles (same as Missile Shield)
Force Dome (unbreakable physical barrier...do you want or do not want players to have this level of power?)
Force Wall (same as Force Dome)
Utter Dome (Cosmic-level dome...same thought of Force Dome but stronger effect)
Utter Wall (Same as Utter Dome)
Breath/Spit Spells (Same as Missile Spells)
Invisibility (watch carefully, different from DD you can attack while being Invis and perma-Invis can be reached)
Blocking Spells (sure-fire, safety-proof, cosmic defense spells... do your casters need this to survive or can they wear armor, weapons to defend?)
Resist Element Spells (Immunity to elements... I normally change for a big resistance bonus)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post
[*]Have you used alternate magic systems in DF? How did it go?
As previously stated I use many alternate systems and they work great for us. Allow casters to be quite different while still being relevant and equivalent in power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post
[*]Have you used the Extra Effort rules as written? Were you happy with the results?
Yes, as written. Quite good for us and all the players like it. You gotta keep the pace of encounters relevant to the players' group power to keep them in check, otherwise if they always have time to rest and recover it's basically free power to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post
[*]Do you use the armor from Basic or Low-Tech? Or do you house rule armor?
Low-Tech: Instant Armor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post
[*]What, if anything, have you done to address the issue of ST-based weapons penetrating armor too easily? Is it worth it to do in DF?
Done nothing. ST is fine, really. My setting also have firearms and gunslingers with limited freedom because they need to create ammo much alike a type of Alchemy/Crafting and they work fine together.

My monsters and "opposition" normally don't use mundane armor, though.

Quote:
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[*]What system(s) have you adopted for point awards? What would you recommend for someone who was raised on the "slow" advancement of AD&D?
I give 1CP per session the player attends (0 if he misses or grossly RP his character during gameplay) but award around 30-50 CPs for big conclusions and history marks.

This gives the players the feeling of a "level up", much like in DD. They like it a lot but I have many restrictions and strings they must abide, to keep things grounded and good, like: You can't spend more then 10% of your character total in a single trait (if they are 250CPs characters, no single trait can have more than 25CPs, for example); no Primary Stat higher than 16 without GM approval; I use a scaled pyramid for skills levels, where they need to bring 2nd and 3rd skills levels to their 1st skill level before being able to raise their 1st skill, cascading backwards...

Keep in mind 30-50CPs is a lot, even for DF, and this method only works because of the whole scenario of strings I attached together. But it gives a nice feeling of "level up" and players really feel like they get a meaningful power increase this way.
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Old 10-09-2015, 07:45 AM   #8
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Default Re: [DF] What's worked? What hasn't?

(cont...)

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Originally Posted by Edges View Post
[*]How have you treated the purchase of enchanted items?
Enchanted items are very special. To build an enchanted item you must first find a Power Material, which I leave very open for the players...it can be the heart of a dragon, the essence of an elemental being, the fang of an ancient predator...whatever big thing they manage to defeat and harvest stuff from.
With the Power Material in hands they must find someone that have magical knowledge relevant to what they want to craft and relevant with the material.

It's completely outside of mechanical rules and done totally inside the game world. Even the players starting magician can enchant powerful stuff...but they gotta work for it.

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[*]Have you used any harsh realism rule options (bleeding, etc.)? How did it go? Did it bog things down too much for DF?
We use Bleeding for special attacks and enemies, Hit Locations, Penalties for Injury, FP Loss, Breakage rules for items...I also use house rule for Maintenance for equipment and carried stuff when/if they are going through hazardous territory like swamps, humid forests...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post
[*]How has healing gone? Have you used any optional/house rules for it? In actual play, are HP and healing spells the object of resource management that they seem to be intended to be? How do you treat healing potions?
Most often, if not always, Healing and HP pools will be __THE__ limiting factor for the groups pace. There'll be a time when they'll have the money, the equipment and the disposition to keep going and the only thing holding them down will be how fast they can recover and get on track.

Personally, in my setting Health potions are almost non-existent and Healing spells are quite limited and hard to learn. Even the casters that can manipulate reality freely have more penalties to amass healing effects, normally take much longer than Magic core spells, have a chance to backfire into the caster and are costly.

So far the balance has been good in that players still look after healing spells and effects but also pay a lot of attention trying to get more armor, defenses and flat out not get hurt.


Sorry for the wall ^_^
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Old 10-09-2015, 11:29 AM   #9
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Default Re: [DF] What's worked? What hasn't?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post
I'm considering starting up a Dungeon Fantasy campaign using most of the supplements in that line. I have read most of the books and some related Pyramid articles. I'm looking for advice from those who have played it. I am particularly interested in any pitfalls that may have been encountered and in house rules that have been used either successfully or unsuccessfully.
Good choice. I personally adore DF, I feel it captures the kill-them-and-take-their-stuff genre better than any other game out there (including the forefather of them all, D&D. Of course, I'm not unbiased). Also, my DF game has been running for many years, and we're playing Epic Level (900+ points) at the moment, but I'll try to remember what the game felt at the start too.
Quote:
Some areas that I am curious about:
Were there any particular supplements that you felt were indispensable? Were there any that you found problematic or unnecessary for your game?
The only book that does not get enough use in my table is Summoners, because no one of my
Quote:
How rigidly have you stuck to the templates? Have you encountered players who felt restricted by them and if so, how did you handle it?
I am going to go over the published books of the series, rate them according to how useful I find them, with a bit of commentary on each

I'll use the following scale:
Indispensable (You can't really play DF without it, unless you redo all the work yourself)
Almost Indispensable (You can play DF without it, but it adds so much that you won't want to do it)
Optional (Nice to have, can add a lot to your games, and if you don't use it, you can feel the void it leaves)
Marginal (Niche product. Not bad by any means, but if you don't have it, you will not feel the need for it)
  • Dungeon Fantasy 1: Adventurers
    Usefulness: Indispensable
    Wherever you're going by the book, or simply using DF as an inspiration, you need this book. It provides you with the basic building blocks for your Dungeon Fantasy games. Now only you get 10 base templates, for the most iconic adventurer types, but you also get introduced to Dungeon Fantasy-style powers, and you get the list of relevant traits for a DF game.
  • Dungeon Fantasy 2: Dungeons
    Usefulness: Indispensable
    Dungeons distills the basic GURPS rules into manageable chunks to keep things going as fast as possible. It also informs you of the rules changes to suit this eclectic genre. Finally it provides you with a set of monsters for your initial games, plus information on how to read monster write-ups in the Dungeon Fantasy format.
  • Dungeon Fantasy 3: The Next Level
    Usefulness: Indispensable
    Others might disagree with me, but this book is IMHO essential. Two new templates (evil clerics and unholy warriors), nonhuman races, multi-classing rules and advancement beyond the base templates (introducing the concept of Power-Ups) make this a staple to my table.
  • Dungeon Fantasy 4: Sages
    Usefulness: Optional
    The templates themselves are only enough to make this supplement marginal, but the real gold is IMHO the book and scroll rules.
  • Dungeon Fantasy 5: Allies
    Usefulness: Optional
    Allies was Power-Ups for Bards, Druids, Clerics, Evil Clerics, Holy Warriors, Unholy Warriors and Wizards. Natural Allies serve as a great resource for shapeshifting spells, druidic allies, and low-level encounters. Even if you're not playing pure DF, having a bunch of templates (albet "overpowered" ones, representing peak specimens, and sometimes over the top abilities) for shapeshifting spells is always great. Divine Servitors are also good, though their use is more limited. Finally familiars are something that any caster in any game will love.
  • Dungeon Fantasy 6: 40 Artifacts
    Usefulness: Marginal
    The artifacts themselves aren't that impressive (with some exceptions), but the background behind some of them is interesting. They certainly fit the quirky tone that permeates the series.
  • Dungeon Fantasy 7: Clerics
    Usefulness: Optional
    Most of the variants are not different enough from the baseline cleric or evil cleric to merit a usefulness rating beyond marginal, with the exception of those that can be taken the druid template and offer them healing spells.
  • Dungeon Fantasy 8: Treasure Tables
    Usefulness: Optional
    Using them for random treasure doesn't rate beyond marginal, but as a resource for new items and weapon and armor modifiers, it's great. Here starts the reign of the tempered glass. Consider baning this in your games, unless you don't mind every weapon past a certain point needing to be made of tempered glass to be considered by the characters.
  • Dungeon Fantasy 9: Summoners
    Usefulness: Optional
    The summoner templates themselves aren't great enough to rate the book beyond marginal, but at least the allies can be used as foes. Still, it doesn't get much use in my table, and I almost rated it as marginal.
  • Dungeon Fantasy 10: Taverns
    Usefulness: Marginal
    While the ready made locations and adventure hooks are nice, I never got much use out of this book. The innkeeper template is better than what the name suggests, but none of my players ever considered it beyond comic relief material, which is a shame.
  • Dungeon Fantasy 11: Power-Ups
    Usefulness: Almost Indispensable
    Power-Ups as a concept date from The Next Level, but it's not until this book that they get the love they deserve. If I don't rate this as indispensable, it's because I don't feel that any beyond the first 3 volumes merits this qualification, and that you can get good mileage out of the options presented in The Next Level. Still, the abilities presented here give a lot of differentiation to the templates.
  • Dungeon Fantasy 12: Ninja
    Usefulness: Marginal
    I was tempted on rating this as optional, for a single reason, and that's the assassin template. Ninjas as such are nice, but IMHO too niche. Assassins are combat-rogues as most players coming from modern versions of D&D and video games expect them to be.
  • Dungeon Fantasy 13: Loadouts
    Usefulness: Marginal
    Don't get me wrong, I find this book to fit it's missing statement to the T. The problem is that it will only see use on the very first sessions, and it's restricted to get from the basic set. Still, for equipping NPCs, it can have some use beyond that.
  • Dungeon Fantasy 14: Psi
    Usefulness: Optional
    The psi template is nice and interesting, but I can see it not fitting in every table. However, just the psychic encounters bring this book to an optional usefulness rating. Even if you're not using dungeon fantasy psionics in your game, more elder things and generic bad stuff to happen to the characters is always nice.
  • Dungeon Fantasy 15: Henchmen
    Usefulness: Optional
    Starting Dungeon Fantasy characters, at 250 points, feel like level 5-6 characters from D&D, that is, differentiated competent in their own sphere. Henchmen are useful if you want to start the game at 1st level though. Running a henchmen game gives you the 1st level feeling down pat. Henchmen are also useful for allies (either capital A allies or hired help) to round up a party, and as an alternate template system. This last part is my favorite one, providing a lot of extra flexibility to the basic templates, letting you, for example, build wilderness-less variants of the scout and barbarian.
  • Dungeon Fantasy 16: Wilderness Adventures
    Usefulness: Almost Indispensable
    The trimmed down rules on wilderness activities make characters with a wilderness (sub-)theme (barbarian, druid, and scout) shine. The only reason that this isn't indispensable, is that some games are perfectly happy with "you appear at the dungeon door, unless I roll a random encounter" for their games (and this makes the aforementioned wilderness themed templates feel like they're paying an unfair cost for their very thematic abilities)
  • Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians
    Usefulness: Optional
    The Adventurers barbarian is a very misunderstood template. They are only a second line combatant. Their real niche is wilderness survival and non-combat physical challenges, making him more Tarzan than Arnold's Movie Conan. The problem is this clash of expectations. Another problem is that SM+1, though thematic, is a bittersweet blessing that not only will make it much more expensive to armor up, but it will also make the party cleric hate you, as buffs and heals will cost double. This book addresses all these issues.
  • Dungeon Fantasy Adventure 1: Mirror of the Fire Demon
    Usefulness: Optional
    This adventure is good, but IMHO a little short and a little too forgiving. Still, it's wonderful for new GMs.
  • Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 1
    Usefulness: Optional
    If this book doesn't rate as almost indispensable it's because the selection in The Next Level is good enough. This book provides a lot of interesting foes for your games.
  • Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 2: Icky Goo
    Usefulness: Marginal
    This rates as marginal because of how niche it is, but if you like the niche, it would rate higher.
  • Thaumatology: Dungeon Magic
    Usefulness: Optional
    The styles themselves are interesting and the variant wizard templates are good.
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Old 10-09-2015, 11:32 AM   #10
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Default Re: [DF] What's worked? What hasn't?

Damn 10000 character limit

Quote:
I have heard claims that some templates tend to dominate combat and make things less fun for the others (specifically the Scout and Swashbuckler but there may be others). Have you found there to be any truth to these claims? If so, how would you suggest addressing them?
The problem is the clash of expectations. Swashbucklers for example offer little outside of their combat ability, and so need to excel in combat to be relevant. Still their low base ST and expectation to use fencing weapons (they don't really have to, though the edged rapier is the best weapon they can get. If it's not allowed, due to appearing in Martial Arts/Low Tech, they should use broadswords instead, because rapiers being thrust only and impaling only will make them suffer against the same targets as the scout). Scouts are awesome against foes that don't have DR and that don't have Injury Tolerance (Unliving, or Homogeneous), that is, against lightly armored living foes. They will decimate hordes of lightly armored ork-kin.
Quote:
What templates have you allowed/disallowed and why?
I have allowed every template, including the ones from Pyramid
Quote:
Have you developed any custom templates?
I have, but they ended up in Pyramid articles, so I'll speak about them there
Quote:
Have you used The Last Gasp with DF? How does it interact with magic?
Nope, it's tempting, but IMHO it needs to be introduced at the campaign start. It also goes counter the fast-furious-fun feeling that permeates the series, giving it a different, grittier feel.
Quote:
Do you have any custom Magic Styles to share?
Nope
Quote:
I have heard that some spells in GURPS Magic can be problematic. Do you have any warnings for me when it comes to DF?
I have a house rule that extends the changes DF introduced to GURPS Magic: Every morning, at dawn, all active magic effects are hit by an infinite strength dispel magic effect, so "permanent" spells last until dawn unless they can't be removed with Dispel Magic (and thus need Remove Curse).

Also, another problem with GURPS Magic is the clash of expectations. GURPS Magic is borderline overpowered for buffing and for problem solving, but other than that, it's not that good in combat. Dealing damage with magic is a losing proposition, with the best offensive combat spells are those that are "save or suck/die"
Quote:
Have you used alternate magic systems in DF? How did it go?
I have created templates that use Imbuements, Divine Favor and Sorcery, and gotten them published in Pyramid. They worked wonderfully
Quote:
Have you used the Extra Effort rules as written? Were you happy with the results?
I use the rules for Extra Effort in Combat (the rules for standard extra effort are technically in play, but don't come up often) and they work well. I might caution against heroic charge, as it provides too much mobility, but since Run and Hit as a power-up exists, removing the option will just create an increased pressure on everyone having that power.up (as if saving the FP wasn't enough of an incentive). The other form of extra effort in combat that sees regular use is feverish defense, with all the remaining options being used once in a blue moon.

I like Extra Effort in Combat, as it gives everyone (and not just spellcasters) something to do with their FP.
Quote:
Do you use the armor from Basic or Low-Tech? Or do you house rule armor?
I use Low Tech armor, and don't regret it
Quote:
What, if anything, have you done to address the issue of ST-based weapons penetrating armor too easily? Is it worth it to do in DF?
Low Tech lets you build and layer heavy armor. The fact that heroes can cleave such thick armors is part of the gonzo-fun of the genre.
Quote:
What system(s) have you adopted for point awards? What would you recommend for someone who was raised on the "slow" advancement of AD&D?
For a while, I gave CPs as per DF3, but lately, I've gotten lazy, and give them on the basis of objectives (this usually means killing the dungeon boss or finding the macguffin). If you want to keep the campaign going for a long time, and still not have the characters ascent to demigod status in power, I recommend that you give between 0 and 2 CPs per session. To make up for sessions where you don't give CPs, award "fractional CPs" (like ¼ or ½) CP
Quote:
How have you treated the purchase of enchanted items?
Well, initially, I used the following rule: Magic items costing up to $100 are always available. More expensive magic items are available on a roll that depends on the size of the town (6- on a village, 9- on a town, 12- on a city, 15- on a megalopolis), at -1 per $1000 of value beyond $1000. Success by 1 or two means that the item comes with an unwanted extra enchantment or quality that drives up the cost. Items can be special ordered, and the local enchanters will enchant it at a rate of $220 per day (basically allowing for skill 25 enchanters having 11-person enchanting circles). Nowadays, we use the enchanting rules present in The Material Difference from Pyramid #3/66: The Laws of Magic instead, with each point of essence retailing for $40 unrefined or $50 refined, but the characters need to enchant the item themselves (they have an scholar-artificer ally that enchants the items for them as long as they provide him with the appropriate grimoires to fill his book learned wisdom)
Quote:
Have you used any harsh realism rule options (bleeding, etc.)? How did it go? Did it bog things down too much for DF?
Enough things bog down DF combat for me to add the harsh realism options. This includes The Last Gasp IMHO.
Quote:
How has healing gone? Have you used any optional/house rules for it? In actual play, are HP and healing spells the object of resource management that they seem to be intended to be? How do you treat healing potions?[/LIST]
Healing is by the book, but at the point level we're playing, it's no longer that much of an issue, given that the cleric-saint has access to two instances of Minor, Major and Greater Healing (via the New Realm power-up), and I rule that each instance of the spell accumulates penalties for multiple uses in a day separately, plus a magic staff that can also cast minor and major healing at 20, plus Lay on Hands/Flesh Wounds from Divine Favor.
Quote:
Please don't be limited by the above list. I am interested in discussing any ideas you have on the subject.
Quote:
Also, is there an index somewhere of published DF material? Which Pyramid issues contain which DF articles? (A sentence or two on what each article contains at a glance would be awesome.)
There isn't. The best there is, is the Pyramid Volume 3 index, unfortunately no longer maintained. Let me dig through my Pyramid issues ti point you at some DF-relevant articles though. I might miss some DF-relevant but not purely DF devoted articles though.
  • #1: Tools of the Trade: Wizards (November 2008)
    • Necromantic Tools (Sean Punch)
      Not purely DF-focused, but the undead arms and improved zombies are awesome for the necromancer
  • #4: Magic on the Battlefield (February 2009)
    • Perfect Defense (Kelly Pedersen)
      Again not DF by itself, but you'll want this if you use The Mystic Knight (in Pyramid #3/13)
  • #6: Space Colony Alpha (April 2009)
    • Surprises From Mother Nature (Kelly Pedersen)
      Not originally DF intended, but the creatures within could be used as DF monsters
  • #10: Crime and Grime (August 2009)
    • The Justiciar (Sean Punch)
      The first of the Pyramid DF templates. This one is a combatant that specializes in capturing fues and bringing them to justice
  • #13: Thaumatology (November 2009)
    • The Mystic Knight (Antoni Ten Monrós)
      The second Pyramid DF template. This one gives you a combatant that channels magic into his weapon to make it cleave armor, add damage or produce effects, and into his armor to make it more resistant. Requires GURPS Power-Ups 1: Imbuements, and Perfect Defense (Pyramid #3/4) is strongly recommended. Eventually got an expanded treatment in Mystic Power-Ups (Pyramid #3/60)
  • #19: Tools of the Trade: Clerics (May 2010)
    • Auras Of Power (Antoni Ten Monrós)
      Provides a new set of abilities for Holy and Unholy Might users to buff or debuff others in their presence. The Aura of Power meta-modifier was reprinted in GURPS Power-Ups 4: Enhancements
    • Warehouse Xxiii: Three Holy Artifacts (Steven Marsh)
      Not originally intended for DF, but the artifacts here could be used in a DF game. Mind you, they are powerful, and could clash with the assumptions of DF, meaning that you might want to tweak them for your game.
  • #25: Epic Magic (November 2010)
    • Essential Magic (Antoni Ten Monrós)
      Not DF exclusive, but created as a way to offer more powerful damaging spells for DF wizards
  • #26: Underwater Adventures (December 2010)
    • Gurps Fathom Five (Roger Burton West)
      Not intended for DF, but these are the only rules for underwater activity beyond what little is in the basic. I've used them for my underwater adventures
  • #27: Monsters in Space (January 2011)
    • Moondragons And Stranger Things (Ken Spencer)
      Not originally DF intended, but the creatures within could be used as DF monsters
  • #28: Thaumatology II (February 2011)
    • It's Pure Chemistry! (Christopher R. Rice)
      Not purely DF-related, but this provides more elixirs compatible with DF games
    • Yellow Goblin Magic (Mark Gellis)
      intended for DF, but this style could work in a DF game
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