(Basic Set; Low Tech) Slinging things

[Rasna]

Originally Posted by Rupert

-1 to Hit for unimproved stones is actually a fairly significant penalty, and a bigger difference than your suggested one (+1 ACC, +20% range).

Actually, with my HR, the difference between unimproved stones and biconical/ovoid slingshots would be a +2/-2 to hit after Aim, not just +1/-1. The default in my HR are round clay shots and rectangular/roundish stone shots.

- Unimproved and poorly-shaped stones: -1 to hit. Range x10/x15. No cost.
- (Default) Rectangular/roundish stone slingshots and round clay slingshots: no advantages or disadvantages. Range x10/x15. CF +0 (base cost), but rectangular/roundish stones can be free if the PCs spend some time looking for them in Nature or knapping and polishing poorly-shaped stones until they reach the desidered form.
- Biconical/ovoid slingshots made of clay or stone: +1 Acc, +20% range (x12/x18). CF +1. In reality they're do a bit more damage as well, but maybe the damage increment is too low to be reflected in game mechanics.
- Lead glandes: +1 damage, +1 Acc, +60% range (x16/x24). CF +3.
- Bronze glandes: same stats as lead glandes, but more durable (HT 14) and much more costly. If lead is available, the higher cost doesn't make them worthy of expense since the performance is identical. CF +11.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Rasna

Bronze glandes

Were these used historically? It seems like bronze wouldn't have any advantage over copper for shot, so you'd be wasting your tin by including it - and historically I believe it was the cost of tin that made bronze so expensive, rather than the cost of copper. I believe copper is also a bit easier to work than bronze. Perhaps CF +5 or CF +6, and identical properties to lead shot (but perhaps a slightly higher HT), would be appropriate.

Granted, it's entirely possible bronze was used - either as a conspicuous consumption kind of thing or perhaps because the users simply assumed bronze would be better than copper (seeing as it's better for most implements of war).

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Were these used historically? It seems like bronze wouldn't have any advantage over copper for shot,).

Probably recycled bronze where it'd be a big nuissance to get the tin back out.

[Rasna]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Were these used historically? It seems like bronze wouldn't have any advantage over copper for shot, so you'd be wasting your tin by including it - and historically I believe it was the cost of tin that made bronze so expensive, rather than the cost of copper. I believe copper is also a bit easier to work than bronze. Perhaps CF +5 or CF +6, and identical properties to lead shot (but perhaps a slightly higher HT), would be appropriate.

Granted, it's entirely possible bronze was used - either as a conspicuous consumption kind of thing or perhaps because the users simply assumed bronze would be better than copper (seeing as it's better for most implements of war).

Yes, but very rarely. There are a few bronze slingshots from Late Bronze Age Cyprus and Aegean Isles. Lead was by far less expensive than bronze, although bronze can also be made adding the much more common (and much more toxic) arsenic to the copper instead of using the tin, which was quite rare and the deposits were very far from the major centers of consumption.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Rasna

Yes, but very rarely. There are a few bronze slingshots from Late Bronze Age Cyprus and Aegean Isles. Lead was by far less expensive than bronze, although bronze can also be made adding the much more common (and much more toxic) arsenic to the copper instead of using the tin, which was quite rare and the deposits were very far from the major centers of consumption.

If you've already got copper, there's no read need to mess round with alloying it to make sling bullets. Copper is castable, it's about the same density as bronze or brass, and isn't enough softer that it's going to matter for this use.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Probably recycled bronze where it'd be a big nuissance to get the tin back out.

I could see that, although given the expense of bronze I'd expect it to be recycled into something where bronze is actually a better option than copper, rather than being more-or-less equivalent. Of course, if you've got a bunch of busted weapons and armor or militarily-useless statuettes, and not enough time to recycle the bronze into properly-made weapons and armor, turning it into sling shot and perhaps hoping you can recover most of it after the battle certainly isn't the worst option available.

[Rasna]

Originally Posted by Rupert

If you've already got copper, there's no read need to mess round with alloying it to make sling bullets. Copper is castable, it's about the same density as bronze or brass, and isn't enough softer that it's going to matter for this use.

My HR reflect historical slingshots, and bronze ones are by far the rarest of them, likely got from recycled bronze scraps. I think copper can be used as well, but as far I know there is no surviving archaeological evidence for copper slingshots.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Probably recycled bronze where it'd be a big nuissance to get the tin back out.

When you remelt bronze, the tin is preferentially lost. So more tin has to be added when bronze is recycled.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Rasna

Yes, but very rarely. There are a few bronze slingshots from Late Bronze Age Cyprus and Aegean Isles. Lead was by far less expensive than bronze, although bronze can also be made adding the much more common (and much more toxic) arsenic to the copper instead of using the tin, which was quite rare and the deposits were very far from the major centers of consumption.

Arsenic was never deliberately added to copper; the arsenic was already in the ore when the copper was smelted. The copper ores in the ancient mines were analysed a few decades ago and it was discovered that the arsenic content in the ore was the same as the arsenic content of the artefacts. Metal workers would have known that some ores produced better tools and weapons than other ores but they would not have known that it was because of the arsenic.

[DanHoward]

Here is a copper-alloy slingshot found at Maa-Palaeokastro on Cyprus and dated about 1200-1100 BC. There is no way to know whether it really is bronze because most writers use "bronze" to describe all cupric alloys. Most of these items have never had a metallurgical analysis.

http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/ima...erweapon04.jpg