(Basic Set; Low Tech) Slinging things

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Rasna

I suspect that the skill of the slinger is crucial to determine not only how much the shot is accurate, but also how far the shot can go.

A simple house rule would be to extend the range bonus described for Throwing skill to any thrown or muscle-powered missile weapon which relies directly on the user's ST rather than storing energy in a spring.

That is, +1 to effective ST to determine range (but not damage) for skill at DX+1, +2 for DX+2 or better.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The link I gave actually mentions that study (p.45 and 51-53); there is reason to think his measurement method underestimated velocities, though certainly not by enough to justify any of the more dramatic claims about slings.

Yeah, I think around 50J, as noted above, would be more typical for these types of shot.

[tbone]

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

I'm in a manic phase & at work but
T-bone mentioned Slings in his current Twitter series (well worth a look for all the non-sling things)...
Does GURPS massively underrate them?

To put some context on that, this is what I tweeted:

#TRPG #GURPS #DailyHouserule 111:
DFRPG: Slings do pi damage, to deadly effect vs vitals.

Per Low-Tech p75, consider changing dam to cr instead (w/ eye shots allowed).

That still leaves slings powerful weapons: dam is sw, & cr is as good as any other damage on a skull shot! →

Reason for the suggestion? Well, no disrespect to this classic weapon from antiquity, but I just don’t see sling shot penetrating vitals like firearm rounds do.

Maybe I’m wrong about that…

And I quite possibly am. In some follow-up exchange, I note that you can easily find YouTube videos showing lead sling shot going pretty deeply into ballistic gel. And ancient Roman surgeons apparently had a special tool for digging sling shot out of patients.

So perhaps it's perfectly reasonable to treat dam as piercing. But it's still worth noting the damage potential of this cheap, simple weapon — particularly thanks to its use of swing dam, a rarity among ranged weapons. Even at, say, a modest ST 12, where the thr vs sw difference isn't too extreme, lead shot will do 1d+3 dam — max 9 dam if it were cr, but pi cranks that up to 27 for a vitals shot! Things get even more extreme as you take ST up from there.

On the other hand: That's best-case dam, of course. DR will often lower that max dam a lot, and players won't often roll max dam to begin with.

So in the end, I'm just pointing out that 1) slings' combination of sw + pi can yield a surprising amount of dam, and 2) if a GM feels it's too much, there's already a published option for switching sling shot dam from pi to cr.

That's all.

(My real issue with slings is something different: I can't figure out RAW for how regular slings, two-handed slings, and sling staffs each work with small shot ("bullets") vs 1-lb shot (rocks, grenades, etc.). I don't know if anyone's interested in that; if so, I'll spell out what confuses me.)

[jacobmuller]

All things considered
House rule: clay bullets +50% range; thrown weapon skills at DX+1 use ST+1 for range; at DX+2, ST+2.

Re Throwing Things: ratio 0.05 I'd house rule x3 range and add a 0.025 or lower ratio for x4 range (but it makes the table lopsided & x3.5 works fine)

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

All things considered
House rule: clay bullets +50% range; thrown weapon skills at DX+1 use ST+1 for range; at DX+2, ST+2.

Re Throwing Things: ratio 0.05 I'd house rule x3 range and add a 0.025 or lower ratio for x4 range (but it makes the table lopsided & x3.5 works fine)

CLay bullets? I'd say they have a lower armor divisor (0.5) and think the lower mass should actually mean they do les base damage and probably not travel as far at the extreme end.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

All things considered
House rule: clay bullets +50% range; thrown weapon skills at DX+1 use ST+1 for range; at DX+2, ST+2.

Re Throwing Things: ratio 0.05 I'd house rule x3 range and add a 0.025 or lower ratio for x4 range (but it makes the table lopsided & x3.5 works fine)

Lead has +50% range over pebbles. The range of baked clay shot would be similar to pebbles but their regular shape makes them more accurate.

[jacobmuller]

I must have misread -
I thought that lead had a range advantage over "clay" and by bullet I mean "glandes" / biconical preformed set size. "clay" as in glandes that weren't lead. RAW gives lead +100% range. I'm going to take the Basic stats as being for whatever random free stone you chuck up to 8oz and give a range bonus for non-lead manufactured glandes.

[Rasna]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

A simple house rule would be to extend the range bonus described for Throwing skill to any thrown or muscle-powered missile weapon which relies directly on the user's ST rather than storing energy in a spring.

That is, +1 to effective ST to determine range (but not damage) for skill at DX+1, +2 for DX+2 or better.

Sounds reasonable. In GURPS, Javelins and throwing sticks in particular tend to have a shorter range than in reality.

A ST 11 skilled slinger using shaped stone slingshots should be capable to reach at least 200 meters. x6/x10 base range for slings is just too low. x10/x15 should be nearer to reality, with lead glandes giving only +60% range instead of doubling it (plus +1 damage and +1 Accuracy) and with properly shaped biconical/ovoid clay or stone slingshots giving +20% range and +1 Accuracy.

Clay has no direct advantage over stoney materials like flint, limestone and basalt, but shaping a lot of regular clay slingshots involves a lot less labour* than knapping and smoothing a lot of stones until they reach the desidered shape.


* Less labour didn't mean less time as well, because clay slingshots had to dry under the Sun for several days before they were ready for use.

[jacobmuller]

I know clay glandes are unlikely to be reusable but I really don't fancy giving them an divisor - I'd have someone arguing they get pi+ damage due to being just like frangible breaching slugs.

I'm assuming clay glandes would be cheaper than lead due to low labour costs but maybe I've got that wrong too...

[Rasna]

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

I know clay glandes are unlikely to be reusable but I really don't fancy giving them an divisor - I'd have someone arguing they get pi+ damage due to being just like frangible breaching slugs.

I'm assuming clay glandes would be cheaper than lead due to low labour costs but maybe I've got that wrong too...

Clay slingshots were in use even in regions where there was plenty of stones and pebbles suitable to being thrown with a sling, so the factor "Having a lot of almost-perfectly shaped shots with relatively few work" was certainly relevant.

Although being not that rare as metal element, lead was extracted in way lesser quantities than clay, so it was almost surely more expensive, and is was (it is) a serious toxic hazard for workers and smiths involved in its processing. Making a certain amount of lead glandes would likely require less time than making the same amount of clay slingshots because lead doesn't need to be dried for days and days under the Sun, and for some reason baked clay slingshots weren't that common.


IMO, rectangular and roundish stone slingshots, pebbles and round clay ammo should have the base Damage, Accuracy and Range for the sling.
Unshaped stones and pebbles should be considered of Low Quality, but they have virtually no cost, being available almost everywhere.

Biconical and ovoid stone slingshots and clay slingshots should give +20% Range and +1 Accuracy.

Lead glandes should give +1 damage, +60% Range and +1 Accuracy. They are more expensive than biconical/ovoid stone and clay ammo of the same weight. Bronze glandes were also used, although very rarely: they were in use in Cyprus during the very end of the Late Bronze Age. They would have pretty much the same stats of lead glandes, but with a better resistance to both atmospherical and mechanical sollecitations (treat as HT 14) and having a much higher cost.