Slings!

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by swordtart

Small islands might have limited resources (Iron / Bronze) but they never have a shortage of rocks and plant fibres to make string. You might have dedicated war reserves of scarce resources, but fielding effective troops also means you have to invest resources in training. You can lunch hundreds of rocks into the into the sea for practically no cost.

An island nation would also prefer to fight off invaders while they were vulnerable wading ashore (or standing off in boats) rather than wait until they actually step onto dry land. With a decent headland you might even have better range than they do. Recall also that you can use a sling with a shield but using a bow with a shield is much harder (or impossible)

As for Hoplites, you have to invest significant resources in armour and weapons. Surely you would reserve those expensive troops for their intended role rather than waste them as mere rock lobbers. If you gave them a long range missile capability they might be inclined to use it rather than close to melee or javelin range as they should (which is why regular armies frown at bringing your own weaponry).

As Hoplites were traditionally free citizens (i.e. city dwellers and propertied farmers) and comparatively wealthy and thus may not have spent their youth out in the boonies lobbing rocks at wolves. As their fathers were also likely hoplites would not any youthful training/emulation have been in the weaponry of that class of citizen (i.e. the spear and sword) rather than the weapons of a peasant?

In the Anabasis, Xenophon specifically calls out that the Rhodian hoplites had their own slings, and were enticed to serve as slingers through extra pay.

...There are, I hear, some Rhodians in our army, the greater number of whom, they say, understand the use of the sling, while their weapon carries even double the distance of the Persian sling, 17. which, as they sling with large stones, reach only a short distance, while the Rhodians know how to use leaden bullets. 18. If then, we ascertain which of them have slings, and give money to each of them[141] for them; and pay money also to any one who is willing to plait more, and find some other privilege[142] for him who consents to serve in the troop of slingers,[143] possibly some will offer themselves who may be able to be of service to us. 19. I see also that there are horses in the army, some in my possession, and some left by Clearchus, besides many others taken from the enemy which are employed in carrying the baggage. If, then, we collect all these, and put ordinary baggage-cattle in their place, and equip the horses for riders, they will perhaps annoy the enemy in their flight." 20. These suggestions were approved; and that very night there came forward slingers to the number of two hundred. The next day, as many as fifty horsemen and horses were pronounced fit for service; leathern jackets[144] and breastplates[Pg 94] were furnished to them; and Lycius the son of Polystratus an Athenian, was appointed their captain.

These Rhodians were hoplites, not slingers, but clearly had the necessary skills to act as slingers. Additionally, it points out that 50 of the hoplites were converted into cavalrymen, which again, supposes that they had existing skills.

Bows have been used with shields by various peoples through-out history, especially the Scythians, which the Greeks would have been in close contact, as trade from the Chersonos region of the black sea was fundamental to several Greek states.

Slings are universally useful for agarian people, especially to keep birds from the seeds when a field was sown. A person of hoplite class almost assuredly would have grown up working in his father's fields. The skill would be easily acquired and widely dissemenated, in order that the Rhodians were renowned as slingers, to the point that they had twice the range of persian slingers, who in turn, outranged Cretans.

[Plane]

The term sling always makes me think of the "slingshot" which is like a stick with a stretchy thing you pull with the other hand, I think used by Dennis the Menace. I don't think it could be used 1-handed and it probably required a lot less skill to aim with, as well as no actual arm movements.

If "slings" is used to broadly refer to this and the iconic weapon in that Al Jazeera article you linked, does anyone know any more specific terms for it, like perhaps a "whip sling" or "spin sling" or "throw sling" ?

[Ashtagon]

Originally Posted by Plane

The term sling always makes me think of the "slingshot" which is like a stick with a stretchy thing you pull with the other hand, I think used by Dennis the Menace. I don't think it could be used 1-handed and it probably required a lot less skill to aim with, as well as no actual arm movements.

If "slings" is used to broadly refer to this and the iconic weapon in that Al Jazeera article you linked, does anyone know any more specific terms for it, like perhaps a "whip sling" or "spin sling" or "throw sling" ?

The weapon seen in Dennis the Menace is more commonly known as a slingshot or a hand catapult.

[Vaevictis Asmadi]

I always thought slingshots were two-handed weapons. One hand to hold the handle, one to pull back the cup with the rock in it.

[Anthony]

And slingshots are fairly high tech, because they require an elastic material at least as good as rubber.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Anthony

And slingshots are fairly high tech, because they require an elastic material at least as good as rubber.

Depends on how much you are willing to allow under the name. Generally if you store your tension somewhere other than a stretched rubber band we give it another name - use a stretched coil spring it's probably a "spring gun", a wound skein and it's a catapult, a leaf spring it's a crossbow - but they're interrelated and you can do things that look more like another one than the usual form for that storage system, or transitional enough to argue which class it goes in.

But yeah, slings had the name long before slingshots. To the extent there is a more specific name in English it's probably "shepherd's sling", to distinguish it from a "staff sling". Note there is another weapon in this name space, the "slungshot", which is effectively a light flail originally made of rope - comparable to but larger than the "monkey paw" thing people have been pushing for self defense lately.

[tbone]

Originally Posted by Plane

If "slings" is used to broadly refer to this and the iconic weapon in that Al Jazeera article you linked, does anyone know any more specific terms for it, like perhaps a "whip sling" or "spin sling" or "throw sling" ?

I've always heard "slingshot"* for the two-handed rubber-band weapon, and "sling" for the swung rope weapon. I don't think any special clarification is needed to avoid confusion.

(The small potential point of confusion is the separate meaning of "sling" as a sort of strap for carrying things. Like the Crossbow Sling in DFRPG: it's a strap for carrying a loaded crossbow, not a crossbow twirled on a rope. or a gunstock that swings a pouch. Though a gunstock with a miniature rock-throwing catapult on top could be an amusing dwarven invention...)

*I think I've seen slingshot stats somewhere in GURPS, maybe for the powerful "wrist rocket" type. I don't recall the stats, but probably pi or pi- damage. And I would expect its Acc to be higher than a sling's, as a slingshot is aimed somewhat like a bow, not "timed" like a sling.

[mr beer]

Slingshots can be effective weapons, I mean probably not as damaging as a sling but as mentioned above more accurate. For an adventuring use of slingshots as a primary weapon, I recommend reading any of the Borrible trilogy.

Book one culminates with the massacre of thinly disguised evil Wombles on Wimbledon common, the kill team being Unaging tween hoodlums. It should bring a nostalgic tear to the eye of any Gen X-er or Baby Boomer raised in the UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Borrible_Trilogy

EDIT

I remember chatting to a guy at work from the Philippines, he said that, amongst other weapons, streetgangs use slingshots to shoot arrows. So you could potentially do impaling attacks with them as well.

EDIT2

If you want to see exotic slingshots in action, this guy's videos are pretty entertaining.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rg_Sprave

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by tbone

*I think I've seen slingshot stats somewhere in GURPS, maybe for the powerful "wrist rocket" type. I don't recall the stats, but probably pi or pi- damage. And I would expect its Acc to be higher than a sling's, as a slingshot is aimed somewhat like a bow, not "timed" like a sling.

They're in High Tech.

Like bows or crossbows you get a single stat line for something that really ought to vary a lot, since you can get all sorts of variations in materials, layout and ST ratings. Dozens of virtually indistinguishable guns, but other weapon get a single stat line? Well OK, maybe swords.

[tbone]

Originally Posted by malloyd

They're in High Tech.

You're right; thanks.

Re the single entry instead of multiple entries: Well, I suppose the brevity in comparison with swords and guns is inevitable, simply in terms of giving people what they want. Lots of players want fiddly distinctions among the many gun models that pop up in games; few care about slingshot models (or will ever use one in a game).

Still, as long as the HT book is going to bring up slingshots at all (thanks, HT!), it'd be nice to see a little more variety – at the least, both a high-tech "wrist rocket" and a kids' Dennis the Menace model (something a little Scrounging could produce easily). And while I'm staring at the HT stats... Really, slingshots should have an ST rating like a bow, not a fixed, ST-independent damage stat. (Granted, a slingshot with a high ST rating might need to be unusually large.) And it is odd that a stone from a sling offers pi damage, while a stone or even ball bearing from a slingshot only gets cr – especially when the slingshot projectile is so much faster (10x the range of a sling!). Finally, I'd like to see the slingshot have Acc higher than that of a sling – though Acc 2 would make the slingshot more accurate than a shortbow, so maybe we're stuck at Acc 1.

Picking nits here. Until there's a GURPS Tactical Pelting book to set all the details right, I commend the game for at least acknowledging this and so many other uncommon (in games) weapons.

Trivia notes for slinger players and PCs:

Wikipedia says the size of typical stones "can vary dramatically, from pebbles massing no more than 50 grams (1.8 oz) to fist-sized stones massing 500 grams (18 oz) or more." Hmm, it would be nice to see a little optional game detail offered for stone size, even if just for S, M, and L stones (although I guess DFRPG already does offer L-size stones, via the Heavy Sling).

BS offers lead bullets for prodds and slings, but I don't see a weight stat for these. DFRPG does offer a weight: 1 oz., which is right on the nose as the weight Wikipedia says is typical for historical lead bullets. (Maybe Wikipedia was the source for DFRPG's weight stat.)

So, anyway. Slings aren't addressed in huge detail in GURPS, but I wouldn't be surprised if this is still the most detailed treatment of the weapon in all of RPGdom.