Slings!

[copeab]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

It is not clear the advantage of cutting a strangled person.

If the victim breaks free before dying, the one strangled by rope will have a sore neck, the one strangled by wire will have a slit (albeit shallow cut) throat and be bleeding.

[seycyrus]

I've used a sling, and Black Leviathan has used a sling.

It would put things in perspective if the folks giving advice on how to use a sling mentioned their background with actually using a sling, and even their proficiency.

Watching videos doth not a slinger make.

[swordtart]

Originally Posted by swordtart

...it flies off at a tangent to the arc you are swinging it...

This might be wrong in retrospect (I am not sure exactly when I release, I just know when it is right). I am sure the centripetal force must also act on the pebble and when the restraining force of the string is released, it must have some effect on the vector.

Or am I over thinking it ;(

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by martinl

I think you mean Gnomco.

I also think that it would not take much additional work to make a sling-garrote-flail-cestus. Just don't crit flail.

Around here at Gnomco HQ we call that weapon the Chunky Salsa. And we've never gotten a bad review from a customer.

Originally Posted by jason taylor

It is not clear the advantage of cutting a strangled person.

Once strangled? Not much....

During the strangling? It's more that wire is harder to work your fingers under to stop the strangling or to get your knife under to cut the cord.

[chandley]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

It is not clear the advantage of cutting a strangled person.

*shrug*. In game terms, a rope garrote does crushing damage to the neck (so, 1.5x injury mod). A wire garrote does cutting (2x injury mod, and if you use the rule, bleeding). Both also cause suffocation, which takes a while to kill. So, the wire garrote is faster to incapacitate and faster to kill than a rope.

The sling-kusari could be used as a "rope garrote" but is not thin enough to count as a "wire garrote". Presumably, the sling-kusari gets a -2 to skill for being improvised to the role of a garrote.

All this from Basic p.405.

From the conversations in this thread, I imagine the sling-kusari counts as a 2 yard kusari. Make it Dwarven, because even if the parry is bad, it could be better than no parry. Then a perk in the spirit of Bow Fencer to let you use Sling skill to fight with the sling as a Kusari and/or a Whip.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

I guess that makes sense. It would be interesting to know why there is no mention of hoplites carrying it as a sidearm though. At least some of them knew how to use it being farmers, and it did not take up space. There is not even mention of them being specifically forbidden slings, the way Mad Anthony forbade loaded muskets at Stony Point (thus implying the fact that muskets were in fact often loaded).

In the Anabasis, Xenophon talks about this. While the 10,000 were mostly Hoplites(by my count, there's close to 9,700 hoplites in the initial force, with around 2000 light troops). The 400 Cretan archers(there can be some debate whether these men were "real" cretans, or greeks from other cities who fought with "cretan arms") were outranged by persian horse archers, and the solution Xenophon seized upon was to draw up 200 Rhodian hoplites and equip them with slings. These and the Cretans were apparently enough to keep the horse archers at bay.

Rhodes was atleast as famous for it's Slingers as Crete was for it's archers(Weird thing: skill with ranged weapons and islands seem to happen, often. If you're ever designing a fantasy culture that uses ranged combat and lives on an island, maybe look at some of these famous islander cultures for inspiration), and both were commonly hired mercenaries. This suggests a culture bak home that invested in training men for expeditionary service to foreign powers, which makes sense. but that's the tip of the ice berg.

Mercenary service is funny. See, certain employers may need certain things, and pay more for them, while other employers may prefer a different set of skills and capabilities. To the Greeks, who overwhelmingly preferred to field heavy spearmen specialized in decisive shock combat, skilled light infantry provide a capability they lack; "native" light infantry often being poorer citizens lacking the equipment and elan of their hoplite counterparts, while the Persians, who fielded large numbers of archers, but had a dearth of disciplined heavy infantry may have preferred to hire hoplites, rather than more ranged infantry. Thus, the wily Rhodian mercenary leader would do well to have men who can serve in both roles.

I think this sort of "dual service" was relatively integral, in particular, to Greek warfare. Any free young man of any sort of class(the sort of young man to become a hoplite) would have familiarity not only with wrestling, spears, and shields, but also running, endurance and throwing javelins. So the youngest hoplites could just as easily serve as peltasts, depending on their equipment. Indeed, younger hoplites were sometimes used, sometimes with cavalry support, to chase down peltasts or other light troops, in a detached fashion from the rest of the phalanx.

And later in greek military evolution, just before they pretty much became irrelevant(absorbed/dominated by Rome or Diadochi, for example), the armieswere focusing on "double-armed" spearmen, often armored, who used a shield more specialized for individual combat(the center bossed and spined thueros), several javelins, and armor, who fought less as a rigid formations.

Javelins seem more line a "sidearm": you can carry several in your offhand, leaving your primary hand free to use a primary weapon like a spear or sword, while also using a shield. Javelins might be lighter and flimsier in close combat than stouter thrusting spears, but they're still generally better at melee than bows or slings. The sling is easier to stow than the bow, but it's still an additional encumbrance, and the sling requires a good deal of space between men in formation.

[Vaevictis Asmadi]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Rhodes was atleast as famous for it's Slingers as Crete was for it's archers(Weird thing: skill with ranged weapons and islands seem to happen, often. If you're ever designing a fantasy culture that uses ranged combat and lives on an island, maybe look at some of these famous islander cultures for inspiration), and both were commonly hired mercenaries. This suggests a culture bak home that invested in training men for expeditionary service to foreign powers, which makes sense. but that's the tip of the ice berg.

Was it a strategy to make up for having fewer natural resources to trade?

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi

Was it a strategy to make up for having fewer natural resources to trade?

*shrugs* I don't know.

I think it has to do with trade and defensiveness. Because islands tend to be reliant on trade, they develop maritime traditions, and have a great deal of contact with others. However, by virtue of their isolation, others can't easily attack them. Also, there's no real "frontier" where you can send your young men off to. The ranged weaponry could have to do with the fact that prior to the ram's invention, shooting at people is about the best way to fight on the water.

I think it's therefore a confluence of having access to a market, being secure enough that you can safely support a large expeditionary force(i.e., you're not constantly under invasion threats), and naval experience.

The three island cultures that leap to my mind are the British Isles, the Cretans and the Rhodians. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but all of them had reputations for naval excellency, a cultural ranged weapon(the english sort of continue this with their wider use of riflemen and their suprlative reputation for accurate long range fire), and sometimes, a bit nefarious sort of strike. The Bible famously says "all cretans are liars", and the Cretans seem to have had a reputation for plundering, looting, ambush and other "dishonest" tactics. The British sometimes have a reputation for "cleverness"(politely) and trade, and the Rhodians were excellent traders and philosophers.

It doesn't take much to pull something neat out of that. A reclusive island, whose inhabitants rove over the waves and are known for their piracy and deadly accuracy of their archers. Their home is shrouded in mystery, a land of constant feuds between cities, dominated by a secretive priesthood, who perform nefarious rites that are fueled by the captives of the roving pirates, and are alleged to placate a monstrous bull god.

[swordtart]

Small islands might have limited resources (Iron / Bronze) but they never have a shortage of rocks and plant fibres to make string. You might have dedicated war reserves of scarce resources, but fielding effective troops also means you have to invest resources in training. You can lunch hundreds of rocks into the into the sea for practically no cost.

An island nation would also prefer to fight off invaders while they were vulnerable wading ashore (or standing off in boats) rather than wait until they actually step onto dry land. With a decent headland you might even have better range than they do. Recall also that you can use a sling with a shield but using a bow with a shield is much harder (or impossible)

As for Hoplites, you have to invest significant resources in armour and weapons. Surely you would reserve those expensive troops for their intended role rather than waste them as mere rock lobbers. If you gave them a long range missile capability they might be inclined to use it rather than close to melee or javelin range as they should (which is why regular armies frown at bringing your own weaponry).

As Hoplites were traditionally free citizens (i.e. city dwellers and propertied farmers) and comparatively wealthy and thus may not have spent their youth out in the boonies lobbing rocks at wolves. As their fathers were also likely hoplites would not any youthful training/emulation have been in the weaponry of that class of citizen (i.e. the spear and sword) rather than the weapons of a peasant?

[Black Leviathan]

Originally Posted by shawnhcorey

You don't twirl your arm when throwing a ball. Don't do it with a sling.

I can throw in a single rotation and very often the stone travels towards what I'm aiming at. However, hitting with any kind of accuracy requires a pretty tightly controlled arc and that doesn't happen for me in a single rotation. It usually takes me three rotations and often enough I don't feel like I have the timing for the throw until the fourth. My friend Alex is faster, but even he needs about two rotations to get an aim when he's throwing at a target. It's possible a few years of keeping wolves away from a flock would make a difference for us. Even then when you compare slinging to archery or knife-throwing or even boomarang, it's very difficult.