Why no Size enhancement for ST?

JCurwen3 · 10-24-2012, 03:09 PM

There is a Size limitation you can take to buy ST (and its subcomponents) more cheaply, at the rate of -10% per SM+1.

Why isn't there an equivalent enhancement of +10% per SM-1? To make it more costly to build tiny PCs with unrealistic ST.

Gollum · 10-24-2012, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

There is a Size limitation you can take to buy ST (and its subcomponents) more cheaply, at the rate of -10% per SM+1.

Why isn't there an equivalent enhancement of +10% per SM-1? To make it more costly to build tiny PCs with unrealistic ST.

Maybe because GURPS is also designed to build unrealistic characters.

Superheroes are, for instance, totally unrealistic. And GURPS is also designed to cover above average, larger than life, legendary, as well as superheroic genres.

Anthony · 10-24-2012, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

There is a Size limitation you can take to buy ST (and its subcomponents) more cheaply, at the rate of -10% per SM+1.

Why isn't there an equivalent enhancement of +10% per SM-1? To make it more costly to build tiny PCs with unrealistic ST.

The way you do that is by slapping an unusual background on that PC.

naloth · 10-24-2012, 03:44 PM

I could guess, but really there should probably be a cost associated with SM since being larger is often a disadvantage and being smaller is often a benefit. Of course, you can argue that the benefits and drawbacks somehow even out, but in truth it's work for the GM to make SM a 0 point feature. I wouldn't assess an enhancement for small characters that have a high ST, though, as that's not where I think the cost belongs.

Captain Joy · 10-24-2012, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

There is a Size limitation you can take to buy ST (and its subcomponents) more cheaply, at the rate of -10% per SM+1.

Why isn't there an equivalent enhancement of +10% per SM-1? To make it more costly to build tiny PCs with unrealistic ST.

As valid a question (?) is: why allow the discount for higher SM at all? Or, what is it about SM 0 that makes it the break point at which the cost of ST should suddenly (no longer) be dependent on SM.

Flyndaran · 10-24-2012, 11:42 PM

The size modifier to strength cost is a point crock, something unusual for Gurps. If you want to promote big characters being strong then do it through setting. If you feel size hinders characters, then give them a disadvantage to cover it.

JCurwen3 · 10-25-2012, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

As valid a question (?) is: why allow the discount for higher SM at all? Or, what is it about SM 0 that makes it the break point at which the cost of ST should suddenly (no longer) be dependent on SM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

The size modifier to strength cost is a point crock, something unusual for Gurps. If you want to promote big characters being strong then do it through setting. If you feel size hinders characters, then give them a disadvantage to cover it.

Well, my suspicion is that it's a slight nod to the idea that higher SM is, despite being called a feature, in fact disadvantageous. So it's "balanced" by having the Size limitation so that large characters can more easily afford the extra ST necessary for them to wear the clothing (including armour) and wield the weapons suitable for their greater size. They're already going to face difficulties in higher cost equipment and being easier to hit, amongst others.

I think the idea of SM being a feature is at the root of the issue. If SM were more tightly bound into the "base" rules, these things wouldn't be an issue. For example, if I elect to have an SM -5 character, his Basic Move will be 5 if I keep his DX and HT at 10 - that's 15x it's max linear dimension, as opposed to the 2.5x for SM 0 characters. An SM -5 character will also be quite odd having a ST 10 (which everyone gets for free at base). A larger creature should, by default, be stronger and faster (if only through increased stride length). There's not even an incentive for smaller characters to buy down ST or Basic Move to lower levels. Or even guidelines about ways to make sensible scaled down characters, including the possible charging of Unusual Background for being stronger or faster than expected at lower SM.

Now, if SM featured into the rules at a deeper level (similarly to how Basic Speed and Move are, by default, based on DX and HT, and then you buy them up or down from there), then you could still build yourself super-strong super-fast ant-sized characters and also super-weak super-slow giants, but you'd pay (or earn) for them. I don't know the best ways to integrate SM more deeply, but tbone had some great ideas (many of which I still use, adapted for 4th Ed).

ErhnamDJ · 10-25-2012, 12:38 AM

One thing to keep in mind is that it's not always a 'creature' that's being built with these rules.

Robots and vehicles don't necessarily have any stride length at all. The speed of a small robot might not have very much to do with its size. Even small insects and mammals and lizards can move very quickly.

I think the real reason why it was done as it was is that ST is priced linearly, though it's not worth a linear increase. ST 60 costs ten more points than ST 59. The only way to not make elephants look completely ridiculous is to either reprice ST entirely, or to give a large discount some other way. It was the second option that was chosen.

I much prefer to use these rules and to then handle SM some other way. Preferably without its own special rules. There should be an advantage that gives people a penalty to hit you. And a disadvantage that gives people a bonus to hit you. Then large creatures would have that. I think someone has a site listing all of the things SM gives you. I would go through and atomize those parts and turn them into general advantages and disadvantages that are priced based on their utility rather than as being part of a package.

Captain Joy · 10-25-2012, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

I don't know the best ways to integrate SM more deeply, but tbone had some great ideas (many of which I still use, adapted for 4th Ed).

No need to adapt to 4th ed. because tbone has already done it for us: http://www.gamesdiner.com/gulliver and http://www.gamesdiner.com/sites/game...GURPS_4e_0.pdf

JCurwen3 · 10-25-2012, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

No need to adapt to 4th ed. because tbone has already done it for us: http://www.gamesdiner.com/gulliver and http://www.gamesdiner.com/sites/game...GURPS_4e_0.pdf

Thanks. I had seen that, but when comparing it to the full GULLIVER rules, it's a bit too "mini" for me. Fortunately with some tweaks and keeping in mind that ST is totally different between 3e and 4e, it's easy to adapt the original GULLIVER rules. Although the Mini for 4e is still helpful as a jumping off point and as a sort of compilation of the existing 4e rules about size and scaling.

10-24-2012, 03:09 PM	#1
JCurwen3 Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Brooklyn, NY	Why no Size enhancement for ST? There is a Size limitation you can take to buy ST (and its subcomponents) more cheaply, at the rate of -10% per SM+1. Why isn't there an equivalent enhancement of +10% per SM-1? To make it more costly to build tiny PCs with unrealistic ST. __________________ -JC

10-24-2012, 03:44 PM	#4
naloth Join Date: Sep 2004	Re: Why no Size enhancement for ST? I could guess, but really there should probably be a cost associated with SM since being larger is often a disadvantage and being smaller is often a benefit. Of course, you can argue that the benefits and drawbacks somehow even out, but in truth it's work for the GM to make SM a 0 point feature. I wouldn't assess an enhancement for small characters that have a high ST, though, as that's not where I think the cost belongs.

10-24-2012, 11:42 PM	#6
Flyndaran Untagged Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon	Re: Why no Size enhancement for ST? The size modifier to strength cost is a point crock, something unusual for Gurps. If you want to promote big characters being strong then do it through setting. If you feel size hinders characters, then give them a disadvantage to cover it. __________________ Beware, poor communication skills. No offense intended. If offended, it just means that I failed my writing skill check.

10-25-2012, 12:38 AM	#8
ErhnamDJ Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: OK	Re: Why no Size enhancement for ST? One thing to keep in mind is that it's not always a 'creature' that's being built with these rules. Robots and vehicles don't necessarily have any stride length at all. The speed of a small robot might not have very much to do with its size. Even small insects and mammals and lizards can move very quickly. I think the real reason why it was done as it was is that ST is priced linearly, though it's not worth a linear increase. ST 60 costs ten more points than ST 59. The only way to not make elephants look completely ridiculous is to either reprice ST entirely, or to give a large discount some other way. It was the second option that was chosen. I much prefer to use these rules and to then handle SM some other way. Preferably without its own special rules. There should be an advantage that gives people a penalty to hit you. And a disadvantage that gives people a bonus to hit you. Then large creatures would have that. I think someone has a site listing all of the things SM gives you. I would go through and atomize those parts and turn them into general advantages and disadvantages that are priced based on their utility rather than as being part of a package. __________________ "For the rays, to speak properly, are not colored. In them there is nothing else than a certain power and disposition to stir up a sensation of this or that color." —Isaac Newton, Optics My blog.