Questions about creating a Naga

[Trachmyr]

I'm creating a Naga/Lamia Racial Template, but I'm still having isuues with some of the core elements of their Posture. No Legs (Slithers), Constriction Attack, Terrain Adaptation (All) and Amphibious covers much of it, but the following is left:


1) Cannot Sprint: I've brought this up before in a previous related thread, and it seems like the general consenus is that it's a Quirk. Does that seem about right?

2) Cannot Jump: While some seem to think this is part of the No Legs (Slithers) feature, I disagree, as that trait also covers bouncers. Again, I think this is worth a Quirk, do you agree?

3) SM: They need to be SM+1 for their constriction attack, their mass (3x Normal), and their Length (3x normal, this would normaly put them at SM+3, but they are long and slender). Yet they can wear Torso/Helms made for humans and they do not have increase reach with their arms.

My solution so far is to make them SM+1 (their long slender body is just a feature), but as a Feature they have "Naga Form", which lets them use normal SM+0 Human Torso/Helms as well as tools. Their Heads/Torsos/Arms are targeted as if they were SM+0, but they do not get the benefits of SM+1 for reach or bites. Effectively any Leg/Foot hit targets their "lower snake body", which is SM+1, +1 to hit, and costs/weighs 2.5x normal Leg Armor (SM 1.5 x 1.5, +10% for feet) to Protect. Does that seem about right, or should it be a Perk (or more)?

4) Lifting ST: Their Lifting ST for their bodies is much higher than their Arm Lifting ST. Does a limitation of -33% (2 points/level of Lifting ST (Body Only)) seem appropriate?

5) Posture: How does "Slithers" interact with posture? Does the default posture become Crawling/Lying Down? I assume this doesn't affect move, but since this build does not have the Horizontal Disadvantage, does it affect attack/Defence? What about being targeted by Attacks, do they always get a -2. If a Naga can rear up to a "Stand" or "Crouch", do they suffer reduced attack/defence/target... does it take a Change Posture action? Do they need Ground Fighting or Low Fighting? What's your take on all of this, as it's the biggest issue I have.

6) Grappling: I'm guessing Technical Grappling will cover this, but does Grappling with the Torso count as two arms, and if so, does each real arm added give the normal +2 bonus?

[Refplace]

#1 and #2 I agree are Quirks.
#3 Dont give them a cannot wear armor disadvantage or limitation on say DR and then you can just call the specific morphology a feature. However I would not go with leg armor. That will interfere with movement too much.
Maybe give them extra DR for lower body only.
#4 I thought Centaurs had a separate lower body ST and I would use that as a guide but checking Fantasy and Banestorm they have full body ST.
#5 Probably crawling but you could treat it as semi upright.
Not sure on the rest but if they do get the penalty they should be able to buy it off with the right perks and techniques.
#6 Yes it will :) Covering unusual body types was part of the draft.
For now though Constriction Attack counts as two handed and hands free grapple. So I would rule the bonus for extra arms applies.
You did give them Double Jointed right?

[Trachmyr]

Originally Posted by Refplace

#1 and #2 I agree are Quirks.

Good

#3 Dont give them a cannot wear armor disadvantage or limitation on say DR and then you can just call the specific morphology a feature. However I would not go with leg armor. That will interfere with movement too much.
Maybe give them extra DR for lower body only.

Actually, upon thinking about it, I plan on making them SM+2 (their extra length will be from an Ordinary Tail). Their "Snake Body" will replace their legs for most accounts, including the hit location table (Foot will be their tail). The SM of +2 and Hit Penalty of -2 will cross out to a net +0. Their upper Torso will behave just like a SM+0 Human. Should Naga Form then be a Perk?

As for DR, they were designed with DR 3 (Limited: Physical Attacks -20%, Tough Skin -40%, Partial: Snake Body -20% (as if legs)) for 3 points. The note about armoring their lower body was just for completeness, and any armor should be "Top Only". With changing them to SM+2, Armor Weight should be 4x Leg Armor... cost should be at least that much, perhaps a good deal more.

#4 I thought Centaurs had a separate lower body ST and I would use that as a guide but checking Fantasy and Banestorm they have full body ST.

In 3e, there were rules for Split ST for Hybrid creatures which involved averaging two different ST scores to find cost. With those rules, you would apply the No Fine Manipulators limitation to the lower body. In 4e, Centaurs use a single ST score but get a -10% for being SM+1.

In 4e, Lifting ST normally can't use the No Fine Manipulators limitation, although I could apply a size limitation I guess.

#5 Probably crawling but you could treat it as semi upright.
Not sure on the rest but if they do get the penalty they should be able to buy it off with the right perks and techniques.

Hmm.. Technically Crawling limits one to Reach C melee weapons. So maybe Crouch/Stand will be needed to avoid that, but that brings up concerns of Movement rates, Change posture manuevers, Attack/Defense penalties, and being targeted by ranged attacks again. Could really use some clarification here, or at least a consensus...

#6 Yes it will :) Covering unusual body types was part of the draft.
For now though Constriction Attack counts as two handed and hands free grapple. So I would rule the bonus for extra arms applies.

Good to know, thanks!

You did give them Double Jointed right?

Yes I did, while at first I considered that it should only apply to the body, it makes sense that their arms would be equally as "contortionable".

I also gave them Clinging with the limitation of "Movement Only" for -50% and "Specific: Textured Surfaces (not Ropes)" -20%. They also have the Perk: Hands-Free (Climbing).

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Trachmyr

Actually, upon thinking about it, I plan on making them SM+2 (their extra length will be from an Ordinary Tail). Their "Snake Body" will replace their legs for most accounts, including the hit location table (Foot will be their tail). The SM of +2 and Hit Penalty of -2 will cross out to a net +0. Their upper Torso will behave just like a SM+0 Human. Should Naga Form then be a Perk?

There's a vermiform hit location table in the back of Campaigns IIRC. I say that the fact that they have a higher SM lower body would be a 0-point feature, similar to born biter.

As for DR, they were designed with DR 3 (Limited: Physical Attacks -20%, Tough Skin -40%, Partial: Snake Body -20% (as if legs)) for 3 points. The note about armouring their lower body was just for completeness, and any armor should be "Top Only". With changing them to SM+2, Armor Weight should be 4x Leg Armor... cost should be at least that much, perhaps a good deal more.

I personally don't see how could you armor the snake body, and not greatly impair mobility. I say that they are a good candidate for Can't Wear Armor on their tail DR. I also don't see why their DR would not be as effective against fire than normal though skill DR, so you should drop that limitation.

In 3e, there were rules for Split ST for Hybrid creatures which involved averaging two different ST scores to find cost. With those rules, you would apply the No Fine Manipulators limitation to the lower body. In 4e, Centaurs use a single ST score but get a -10% for being SM+1.

In 4e, Lifting ST normally can't use the No Fine Manipulators limitation, although I could apply a size limitation I guess.

While contrary to the RAW, I would allow them to buy lower body ST with the size and no fine manipulators limitations. Upper body ST would be the "base" ST, and bought with no limitations (not even size). Track injury separately.

Hmm.. Technically Crawling limits one to Reach C melee weapons. So maybe Crouch/Stand will be needed to avoid that, but that brings up concerns of Movement rates, Change posture manuevers, Attack/Defense penalties, and being targeted by ranged attacks again. Could really use some clarification here, or at least a consensus...

I say that as a feature of the vermiform body type, they can switch from lying face down to standing as a free action, move at full move while lying down, and suffer no penalties while lying down.

Yes I did, while at first I considered that it should only apply to the body, it makes sense that their arms would be equally as "contortionable".

I also gave them Clinging with the limitation of "Movement Only" for -50% and "Specific: Textured Surfaces (not Ropes)" -20%. They also have the Perk: Hands-Free (Climbing).

Good ideas

[Trachmyr]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

There's a vermiform hit location table in the back of Campaigns IIRC. I say that the fact that they have a higher SM lower body would be a 0-point feature, similar to born biter.

I don't like the Vermiform hit location table as it makes the Neck and arms more vunerable.

While the Born Biter makes some sense, I don't want the snake body targeted at +2 if you're attacking them when "Standing"... a net +0 seems fair (-2 legs and +2 SM). I'm up in the air if their snake body should be targeted at +2 from other hexes...

Born Biter also doesn't change Actual SM, which this should.

The Human Torso uses all SM+0 rules; lighter armor, no +2 to hit, no ST cost reduction, no increased reach.

At the momment I'm charging a PERK: Naga Form for this.

I personally don't see how could you armor the snake body, and not greatly impair mobility. I say that they are a good candidate for Can't Wear Armor on their tail DR. I also don't see why their DR would not be as effective against fire than normal though skill DR, so you should drop that limitation.

OK, sounds good.

While contrary to the RAW, I would allow them to buy lower body ST with the size and no fine manipulators limitations. Upper body ST would be the "base" ST, and bought with no limitations (not even size). Track injury separately.

Hmmm... I agree that the upper body shouldn't get a SM reduction, I should of mentioned that earlier. The only thing I concerned with is that they'll get lower body Lift ST really cheap, at just 1.2 points per level if SM+2... and this will affect their Encumbrance. Maybe instead of NFM at -40%, I should use Partial (from DR) at -10% since the only thing it won't affect is their arms for the most part... even their Human Torso gets the advantage since I don't want to track split Encumbrance levels. This bring the cost to 2.1 per level, which feels closer to "right".

I say that as a feature of the vermiform body type, they can switch from lying face down to standing as a free action, move at full move while lying down, and suffer no penalties while lying down.

So how about this, in all cases MA's rules for Hit Locations from Postures apply:

• Crawling/Face-Down: No Penalties & Full Move, -2 to be targeted by ranged (plus other normal restrictions), Can only use Reach "C" Weapons, otherwise they take normal attack & Parry penalties unless they have ground Fighting.

• Crouching: No Penalties & Full Move. -2 to be Targeted by ranged. Instead of a Step, can "Strike" with a reach "C" attack giving it a Reach of 1.

• Standing: Normal rules appply. However, as part of a step or instead of a step, can "Strike" and add +1 reach to any attack.

• Lying Face-up: Can only use Reach "C" Weapons, otherwise they take normal attack & Parry penalties unless they have ground Fighting. -2 to be targeted by ranged (plus other normal restrictions). Move is 0 and Dodge is at -3 (affected by Ground Fighting as normal).

• Kneeling or Sitting: Do Not Apply

• Can change to any posture (including lying face-up/face-down) at the beginning of your turn as a free action, and can also change to any posture at the end of your turn if you took no more than a step. (as per crouching)

Does this seem like a quirk, feature, perk, or advantage?
(Note that the "Strike" rules effectively give the reach advantages of their SM+2 Body with restrictions)

Good ideas

Another trait they have is Hit Points +10 (Temp. Disad: Vunerability x2 (Any hit to the human Torso/head) -40%, Doesn't Affect Arm/Hand Cripple Threshold -10%) [10 Points]

Taboo Trait: Extra Hit Points with Limitations must ALWAYS equal normal Hit Points.

This way Injury doesn't need to be tracked seperately.

[vicky_molokh]

This discussion might come in handy.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Trachmyr

Does this seem like a quirk, feature, perk, or advantage?
(Note that the "Stike" rules effectively give the reach advantages of their SM+2 Body with restrictions)

Overall it sounds like an advantage, in the [5-10] point range. It provides a lot of little benefits. The ability to change posture as a free action is, IMO, a bit excessive. I'd make it a Step (like switching between kneeling and standing) but let them go to any posture from it; not needing to spend two seconds standing up is a nice perk in itself. Tossing in the other little perks (full Move while lying down, using a Step to extend Reach, etc) brings it into the realm of [5] cp, which is what I'd charge for it.

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Trachmyr

I don't like the Vermiform hit location table as it makes the Neck and arms more vunerable.

While the Born Biter makes some sense, I don't want the snake body targeted at +2 if you're attacking them when "Standing"... a net +0 seems fair (-2 legs and +2 SM). I'm up in the air if their snake body should be targeted at +2 from other hexes...

Born Biter also doesn't change Actual SM, which this should.

The Human Torso uses all SM+0 rules; lighter armor, no +2 to hit, no ST cost reduction, no increased reach.

At the momment I'm charging a PERK: Naga Form for this.

Instead of thinking about them being SM0 humans with a SM+2 tail, think of them as being SM+2 serpentoids with SM-2 heads and arms, and a vulnerable area in the "torso". I have no issues with that being a 0 point feature, but a perk can work, specially if you go for a more favorable hit location table.

Hmmm... I agree that the upper body shouldn't get a SM reduction, I should of mentioned that earlier. The only thing I concerned with is that they'll get lower body Lift ST really cheap, at just 1.2 points per level if SM+2... and this will affect their Encumbrance. Maybe instead of NFM at -40%, I should use Partial (from DR) at -10% since the only thing it won't affect is their arms for the most part... even their Human Torso gets the advantage since I don't want to track split Encumbrance levels. This bring the cost to 2.1 per level, which feels closer to "right".

As you wish. It doesn't increase their basic lift (for lifting purposes, for the maximum weight of a weapon you can use or parry),... I would also not allow them to carry things that would be too big for their human torso, even if their snake tail would be strong enough. Armor? probably, because properly tailored armor spreads the mass. A humongous backpack? only with an excellent roll for some suitable skill to pack it. They don't get much out of the striking ST part of the ST either, since they can't kick, and can't wield weapons with it.

The main benefits they get from that ST is that they can full body push and pull with a proper harness, and they can use it for grapples and constriction attack.

So how about this, in all cases MA's rules for Hit Locations from Postures apply:

Seems reasonable

Another trait they have is Hit Points +10 (Temp. Disad: Vunerability x2 (Any hit to the human Torso/head) -40%, Doesn't Affect Arm/Hand Cripple Threshold -10%) [10 Points]

Taboo Trait: Extra Hit Points with Limitations must ALWAYS equal normal Hit Points.

This way Injury doesn't need to be tracked seperately.

What I was thinking was more like:
Humanoid torso hits reduce total hit points normally. Crippling thresholds and major wound thresholds for arms, hands, etc etc are based on the humanoid torso HP. On top of this, track injury to the parts of the humanoid torso separately. If injury to it exceeds it's HP, you need to roll for unconsciousness as if you were at negative HP. If injury to it exceeds 2x HP, you need to roll HT to avoid death (and so on at 3x torso HP, and so on). If you suffer wounds both to your humanoid torso and your snake tail, you are at your worse penalties between counting the whole injuries vs full body HP, and the torso injuries vs torso HP.

[Trachmyr]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

Instead of thinking about them being SM0 humans with a SM+2 tail, think of them as being SM+2 serpentoids with SM-2 heads and arms, and a vulnerable area in the "torso". I have no issues with that being a 0 point feature, but a perk can work, specially if you go for a more favorable hit location table.

Yeah, that's a better way to look at it.

• SM +2

• Feature: Naga Body - Has a Human Torso, Head and Arms. These are SM+0 for purposes of Targeting and Equipment used. Reach with attacks are as normal for SM+0 (but see below). Strength Purchased with the SM discount never applies to Arm ST or Bite ST.

• Feature: Striking - From a crouching Position, you may attack as if your Reach was SM+1 instead of a step. From a Standing Position, you may attack as if your reach was SM+2 when making a Step or instead of a Step.

• Stretching 2 (Reduced Time 1 +20%, Reflexive +40%, Only for Squeezing/Reducing SM -75%, Snake Body Only -20%) [8 Points]

This covers the negated SM bonus to Hit Locations as well as moving through narrow obstacles. The Naga could bunch up it's body to give someone the +2 to hit, but otherwise it can keep a narrow and hard to hit profile.

As you wish. It doesn't increase their basic lift (for lifting purposes, for the maximum weight of a weapon you can use or parry),... I would also not allow them to carry things that would be too big for their human torso, even if their snake tail would be strong enough. Armor? probably, because properly tailored armor spreads the mass. A humongous backpack? only with an excellent roll for some suitable skill to pack it. They don't get much out of the striking ST part of the ST either, since they can't kick, and can't wield weapons with it.

The main benefits they get from that ST is that they can full body push and pull with a proper harness, and they can use it for grapples and constriction attack.

I like your notation on Gear has to be Human sized porportions, or requires very special and expensive bags. But I can certainly picture a Naga with a set of Saddle Bags strapped on for extra capacity.

I think I'll just set the cost to be a flat 2/level. Don't overlook the effect on Grappling & Constriction Attack, and the increase in how much armor could be worn on the Human Torso. However, Striking ST would deffinately get the -40% NFM discount if applied to just the lower body.

What I was thinking was more like:
Humanoid torso hits reduce total hit points normally. Crippling thresholds and major wound thresholds for arms, hands, etc etc are based on the humanoid torso HP. On top of this, track injury to the parts of the humanoid torso separately. If injury to it exceeds it's HP, you need to roll for unconsciousness as if you were at negative HP. If injury to it exceeds 2x HP, you need to roll HT to avoid death (and so on at 3x torso HP, and so on). If you suffer wounds both to your humanoid torso and your snake tail, you are at your worse penalties between counting the whole injuries vs full body HP, and the torso injuries vs torso HP.

I get where you're going, but I really don't want to track to seperate pools... and the way they interact isn't cummunalitive enough for my tastes. Thus the Double Hit Points and Double Injury to Torso/Head, it effectively does the same thing but without the extra tracking. It also will let them heal faster, given their size, and be better at representing their Mass when calculating Collisions/Slams/etc.


Thanks for the Feed Back so far!

[Trachmyr]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Overall it sounds like an advantage, in the [5-10] point range. It provides a lot of little benefits. The ability to change posture as a free action is, IMO, a bit excessive. I'd make it a Step (like switching between kneeling and standing) but let them go to any posture from it; not needing to spend two seconds standing up is a nice perk in itself. Tossing in the other little perks (full Move while lying down, using a Step to extend Reach, etc) brings it into the realm of [5] cp, which is what I'd charge for it.

I agree it certainly Sounds like an advantage.

But consider that with No Legs (Slithers), you can normally crawl at no attack/defence penalties, no reduction to Move, and still be at -2 to hit with a ranged weapon. And at SM+2, all weapons should get +1 reach.

What I'm trying to do is give reasons for a Naga to ever be upright. The Striking rules are simply the Reach bonus normal for SM+2, but with restrictions. Adding the Need for Ground Fighting with Reach 1+ weapons, gives incentive to raise up. Normally you can always drop to a lower position... and raising from crouch to stand uses the same rules as normal. Only prone to Crouch, and prone to stand is enhanced... and I thought that nerfing their abilities while crawling and then making them take turns to rear up was being overly mean.

So far that's one vote for "Sounds Good", and one vote for a 5-10 advantage. I'd like to hear what others think!