Are Active Defenses Affected By Attack Speed?

[JCurwen3]

Are Active Defenses affected by the speed of an attack?

Let's say something is racing toward you at 100 yd/s (205 mph). On the Size and Speed/Range Table, that it gives it -10 penalty to hit it if it were a target you were aiming at, or to notice it with a Sense roll, right?

Are there penalties to Active Defenses due to its high speed? And how about penalties due to range? I would imagine that when defending against an attack that fast coming right for you, that the shorter the range away from you it fires off, the worse off you are, and the farther away it is, the better the odds you have to notice it and defend. Right? Finally, does the SM of the projectile affect target's active defenses, and if so, how? Projectiles of SM -15 might be more difficult (impossible?) to notice but easier to Dodge, whereas larger SM projectiles, perhaps even SM 2, may be much easier to notice but harder to Dodge.

I might be missing something, but all I can find is how these things affect the attacker, with his attack modified by the SM, Speed, and Range of the target, and also Sense rolls. I could find nothing about the defender's odds being modified by those properties of a projectile attack. If those those things don't modify the target's active defenses, why not? Clearly there is a magical limit where the sheer speed of a projectile makes it impossible to Parry without both Parry Missile Weapons and ETS, and you also don't get a Dodge if the projectile is fired by someone "sniping" you, and even with that skill and ETS it's still "parry bullets at -5". So speed must come into play, and I would suspect that all of the above qualities of an attack (SM, Speed, Range) should progressively affect a target's defense.

Again, if I'm missing something, please point me to it, or explain why I'm wrong that these things should matter.

[roguebfl]

Active defenses are effect by attack speeds in these ways:

• You can parry thrown items.
• You can't parry projectile without cinematic skill Parry Missile Weapons.
• You can't parry bullets with out both the cinematic skill Parry Missile Weapons and Enhanced Time Sense.
• You Dodge attack you know are coming but cant tell where they from at -4.
• You can't even Dodge attack you don't know are coming.

Other than no size and speed is a Hit not Defence mod.

in other wrads if you want to kill your players regarly use ambush/sniper tactics, or make sure you a very very clear with them of your house rules... becuase that IS what going to happen if you start messing with dodge but stacking on the realtively huge modifers of speed and range onto defense.

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Active defenses are effect by attack speeds in these ways:

• You can parry thrown items.
• You can't parry projectile without cinematic skill Parry Missile Weapons.
• You can't parry bullets with out both the cinematic skill Parry Missile Weapons and Enhanced Time Sense.
• You Dodge attack you know are coming but cant tell where they from at -4.
• You can't even Dodge attack you don't know are coming.

Other than no size and speed is a Hit not Defence mod.

in other wrads if you want to kill your players regarly use ambush/sniper tactics, or make sure you a very very clear with them of your house rules... becuase that IS what going to happen if you start messing with dodge but stacking on the realtively huge modifers of speed and range onto defense.

I thought those were the official rules, thanks. I just think they lack some realism. And the inclusion of these modifiers into defense calculation wouldn't be all bad. I think a higher SM missile first noticed at a decent range should give some bonus to any active defense. In general that'd be true.

About speed, one can also envision, in a (much) sillier or weird-science campaign, the kind of blasters that the Mooninites of Aqua Teen Hunger Force had, where the "projectile" shot by the blaster creeps by at about a foot per second at best (actually, a very slow moving missile that detonates on contact could have legitimate non-silly existence in a 0 G environment). No one would argue that the slowness of that projectile would basically make all but the slowest or most motor impaired characters guaranteed to Dodge it. The very requirement for ETS in order to apply Parry Missile Weapons skill to bullets is an implicit acknowledgement that at least the speed of the projectile coming at you matters. ETS isn't explicitly defined as far as exactly by what precise multiple it increases perceptual and mental processing (as written it's basically infinite), but I have a hard time believing that, theoretically, the ability to Parry Missile Weapons doesn't have a "hidden" massive ridiculous skill penalty to parry bullets, so massive that it's called "impossible" without ETS (much like how tasks assigned a -10 difficulty rating are generally considered all but impossible).

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

I thought those were the official rules, thanks. I just think they lack some realism. And the inclusion of these modifiers into defense calculation wouldn't be all bad. I think a higher SM missile first noticed at a decent range should give some bonus to any active defense. In general that'd be true.

No it not true, Most projectiles are UNDER child size so that -3 or worse right there. You want to be out of their reach still before they at again, that is 7 yards or better that another -3 or worse.. so their there you BEST case of average is going to -6 to active defenes, typially that going to be even worse! Worse when you assuming the weapon is actully going faster that covering that 7 yards in 1 second. Not GURPS rules normal does not incouter projectiles going slow enouh farn enough away that it takes longer than 1 second to reach the target

Which means you player will almost NEVER succeed in an active defence...

as for realism the odds of getting hit in GURPS use RAW actual closely match Police gun fire statistics. So anything make it the odds of dodging worse is almost by defition making it less realistic.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

I thought those were the official rules, thanks. I just think they lack some realism.

You might want to consider the Harsh Realism rules for active defenses in Martial Arts and Tactical Shooting.

[starslayer]

Further, dodging is NOT the act of 'getting out of the way of the projectile', but 'moving in an erratic fashion so that the shot is not on target in the first place'- this is why a dodge ROLL is automatic so long as you are aware of the incoming attack AND why even an otherwise obvious attack can be launched as a surprise attack so long as the ATTACKER was undetected when they initiated.

If you want to be more precise use the rules of 'leading the target' or 'deceptive strike'. (Basically take a -2 on your attack roll to give a -1 to defence rolls).

[Wraithe]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

Are Active Defenses affected by the speed of an attack?
...
Again, if I'm missing something, please point me to it, or explain why I'm wrong that these things should matter.

Yes, but not in the way you mean.

An object is moving directly at you at Move 100.

First the GM has to determine if it's a surprise situation. If it is, and you are surprised, then you can dodge, but at -4. If not, you dodge normally.

If you see the object and it's less than 100 yards away, then see above.

If you see the object and and it's more than 100 yards away, you have a chance to use your move to move out of the way, and it will have to maneuver (which gets tricky at that speed) to try and enter your hex/attack.
If you can keep it out of your hex/attack range, then you never have to make a dodge roll, because it never gets near you.

If you don't see the object then obviously, no active defense, of if they're aware of it, but just can't see it, again -4 to dodge.

Once something is in your hex, it pretty much doesn't matter what speed it is, dodge is that "holy crap, move out of the way" action and it's all on you.

If you want to model something fast and highly maneuverable, then you want to give the attacking item/person bonuses to hit.

Think of it this way, Dodge works against _lasers_*. :)

*yes, I know, different mechanic, I'm just kidding. :)

[OldSam]

Originally Posted by JCurwen3

I think a higher SM missile first noticed at a decent range should give some bonus to any active defense. In general that'd be true.

You're right, but IMHO the first address for this issue is perception! ;)

Ask for a vision-based roll on perception to see if the incoming missile can be noticed quickly. If it's not very fast - thus slower than an arrow for instance - or it's very far away, you could give a bonus on dodge if perceiving it was easy and you feel it fits...
Or, like others have mentioned, if you didn't see the specific gun or projectile aiming at you, but noticed that you are the target, you are dodging at -4...

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by starslayer

Further, dodging is NOT the act of 'getting out of the way of the projectile', but 'moving in an erratic fashion so that the shot is not on target in the first place'- this is why a dodge ROLL is automatic so long as you are aware of the incoming attack AND why even an otherwise obvious attack can be launched as a surprise attack so long as the ATTACKER was undetected when they initiated.

I don't want to start a flamewar, but I really don't like that interpretation of dodge. There are just far too many cases where dodge seems (to me) to be a clear, discrete attempt to get away from the line of a perceived attack.

If a dodge is just moving erratically, a) how can you aiming while doing that, b) why does it spoil your aim if and only if an attack occurs, c) why is it so completely useless against attacks you are unaware of, and d) why is it impossible to move erratically when making an all-out attack?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by RyanW

If a dodge is just moving erratically, a) how can you aiming while doing that, b) why does it spoil your aim if and only if an attack occurs, c) why is it so completely useless against attacks you are unaware of, and d) why is it impossible to move erratically when making an all-out attack?

a-c I pretty much agree with. d is easy to answer, though...moving erratically is hardly the behavior that optimizes accuracy with either melee or ranged weapons.