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Old 10-02-2009, 11:53 AM   #1
panton41
 
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Default [Spaceships]Is stealth pretty much useless?

While reading through the book again I noticed how stealth provides a penalty to detection, unless the ship has a signature of +4 or more. Add on that every nuclear plant and most reaction drives have a signature of +4 or more, this makes the stealth option of very little use beyond TL8.

I know this has to do with how much IR they put out and everything, but I simply can't imagine stealth technology becoming pretty much worthless so quickly, seeing how it's pretty much a TL8 innovation, especially when higher TL give a better bonus. I mean TL9 and higher power plants are dominated by reactors and apparently all reactor designs negate using stealth.

Am I misreading something, or am I correct?
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Old 10-02-2009, 12:00 PM   #2
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Default Re: [Spaceships]Is stealth pretty much useless?

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Originally Posted by ciaran_skye View Post
While reading through the book again I noticed how stealth provides a penalty to detection, unless the ship has a signature of +4 or more. Add on that every nuclear plant and most reaction drives have a signature of +4 or more, this makes the stealth option of very little use beyond TL8.

I know this has to do with how much IR they put out and everything, but I simply can't imagine stealth technology becoming pretty much worthless so quickly, seeing how it's pretty much a TL8 innovation, especially when higher TL give a better bonus. I mean TL9 and higher power plants are dominated by reactors and apparently all reactor designs negate using stealth.

Am I misreading something, or am I correct?
You're probably correct. There isn't much to hide behind in space, and engines are hot. Note, however, that when you are going by somewhere you don't want to see you, you can just turn your engines off. They don't give much of a signature there, right?
It might also be possible to power down your reactor (might want to have some capacitor banks so you have something to run on). The reactor should also be able to be shielded, although I'm not certain if Spaceships has rules for this. If not, an approximation might be to take up one system to shield the reactor (must be in the same location, of course). Maybe price it comparably to the best TL8 armor?
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Old 10-02-2009, 12:01 PM   #3
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Default Re: [Spaceships]Is stealth pretty much useless?

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/roc...html#nostealth
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Old 10-02-2009, 12:30 PM   #4
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Default Re: [Spaceships]Is stealth pretty much useless?

I think the design goal is to match the cinematic use of the cloaking device, rather than to create an ideal stealth system that can be used at speed with all guns blazing. Using Star Trek as an example, Klingons and Romulans use stealth for attacking out of ambush; I can't think of any fictional use of cloaking devices for attacking somebody traveling at full speed.

You could house-rule something else in there, reducing the signature of reaction drives, but consider the consequences. Reaction drives aren't constantly firing unless the ship is constantly accelerating. A ship can burn its engines for 30 seconds and, upon reaching the desired speed, coast pretty much indefinitely (unless it forgets to steer, and slams into the third moon of Jaglan Beta).

A ship that can be at full maneuvering speed and cloaked ... how do the players fight such an enemy? If the ship belongs to the players, how do you present them with a challenge?
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Old 10-02-2009, 12:33 PM   #5
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Default Re: [Spaceships]Is stealth pretty much useless?

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Originally Posted by SuedodeuS View Post
You're probably correct. There isn't much to hide behind in space, and engines are hot. Note, however, that when you are going by somewhere you don't want to see you, you can just turn your engines off. They don't give much of a signature there, right?
It might also be possible to power down your reactor (might want to have some capacitor banks so you have something to run on). The reactor should also be able to be shielded, although I'm not certain if Spaceships has rules for this. If not, an approximation might be to take up one system to shield the reactor (must be in the same location, of course). Maybe price it comparably to the best TL8 armor?
The only way to "shield" your reactor would be with heat sinks, using the coolant rules.
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Old 10-02-2009, 01:02 PM   #6
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Default Re: [Spaceships]Is stealth pretty much useless?

The tough thing about thermal stealth in space is you are nearly always in front of a 2.75 Kelvin background.

You might be able to shield your radiant heat from certain directions, but your enemy can trivially put unmanned detector stations throughout the system.

Against equal technology, stealth in space is probably impossible. Against unequal technology, stealth in space is probably irrelevant, ie, if you are starfaring, and your target isn't, it doesn't matter if he knows you are coming.

(BTW, I love Project Rho. I have enjoyed many hours there.)
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Old 10-02-2009, 01:23 PM   #7
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Default Re: [Spaceships]Is stealth pretty much useless?

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Originally Posted by ed_209a View Post
Against unequal technology, stealth in space is probably irrelevant, ie, if you are starfaring, and your target isn't, it doesn't matter if he knows you are coming.
Not counting the occasional scientific expedition whose mandate is to observe without being noticed by the natives, who are so primitive that they still burn carbon compounds to generate electricity....
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Old 10-02-2009, 03:53 PM   #8
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Default Re: [Spaceships]Is stealth pretty much useless?

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Originally Posted by SuedodeuS View Post
You're probably correct. There isn't much to hide behind in space, and engines are hot. Note, however, that when you are going by somewhere you don't want to see you, you can just turn your engines off. They don't give much of a signature there, right?
It might also be possible to power down your reactor (might want to have some capacitor banks so you have something to run on). The reactor should also be able to be shielded, although I'm not certain if Spaceships has rules for this. If not, an approximation might be to take up one system to shield the reactor (must be in the same location, of course). Maybe price it comparably to the best TL8 armor?

Modifiers to detection for a wide variety of actions are included on SPACESHIPS page 44. E.g., if you have a fusion reactor and power down to minimal power, life support off (vacc suits), etc. that's a difference of -7 in detection chance. If you're not in the open (e.g., hiding in debris) that removes the +10 bonus. So minimal power, not in plain sight is effectively -17
off the standard chance of detection for a fusion -power ship. Even better, try not silhouetting yourself against deep space: changes the detection from +24 to +2 if you've got a world or star at your back...
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Old 10-02-2009, 04:21 PM   #9
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Default Re: [Spaceships]Is stealth pretty much useless?

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The reactor should also be able to be shielded, although I'm not certain if Spaceships has rules for this.
It isn't the reactor that's visible, it's the radiators. You can, in theory, shield them (i.e. make them directional) but it reduces their efficiency, requiring bigger radiators.

If you aren't using radiators, there must be some way that reactors are dealing with waste heat. Whatever technology allows that could probably justify superscience cloaking devices.
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Old 10-02-2009, 04:22 PM   #10
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Default Re: [Spaceships]Is stealth pretty much useless?

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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
I think the design goal is to match the cinematic use of the cloaking device, rather than to create an ideal stealth system that can be used at speed with all guns blazing. Using Star Trek as an example, Klingons and Romulans use stealth for attacking out of ambush; I can't think of any fictional use of cloaking devices for attacking somebody traveling at full speed.
Think also of submarine movies, where everything must be oh so still and quiet to avoid being detected by the enemy.
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