Daring to ask the what does SM do question.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Large size makes carrying things much easier. Have you ever tried to hold a heavy box that you can't quite get your arms around?

+1 in Grapples!

[lexington]

So the argument, as I follow it, is that if you make completely ridiculous characters like an SM -1 creature with ST19 and examine them in a vacuum the whole system falls apart?

In terms of combat effect the most significant problem, IMO, is that SM+1 doesn't give a meaningful reach advantage and negative SM doesn't meaningfully penalize reach. You can really see the deadly effects of Reach when you imagine what giants would actually end up doing with their weapons. Ranks of twelve foot tall pikemen would annihilate three foot tall soldiers, even if their ST was inexplicably the same.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by lexington

So the argument, as I follow it, is that if you make completely ridiculous characters like an SM -1 creature with ST19 and examine them in a vacuum the whole system falls apart?

In terms of combat effect the most significant problem, IMO, is that SM+1 doesn't give a meaningful reach advantage and negative SM doesn't meaningfully penalize reach. You can really see the deadly effects of Reach when you imagine what giants would actually end up doing with their weapons. Ranks of twelve foot tall pikemen would annihilate three foot tall soldiers, even if their ST was inexplicably the same.

Ranks of 12 foot tall pikemen with ST 12 or so would be hard put to handle reasonable-sized weapons or wear any kind of protection. But if you give them more ST so they aren't incapacitated by a basic load, and somehow protect them against missile weapons, they could be impressive.

Though they do suffer -2 on all their attacks. That could be a bit of a problem if their skill is low or their opponents have good active defense. And size doesn't improve their mobility (except for letting them step over bigger clutter freely), so while they have plenty of reach advantage they have no particular edge in keeping people from crossing that line...

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by lexington

So the argument, as I follow it, is that if you make completely ridiculous characters like an SM -1 creature with ST19 and examine them in a vacuum the whole system falls apart?

If the game system doesn't want you to create SM -1 creatures with ST 19, it should have rules to enforce that preference. It's not even particularly ridiculous, if we take something like an animated stone statue, a SM -1 stone statue probably weighs on the order of 200 lb and it's a homogenous object, so calculated ST/HP is 47...

[lexington]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Ranks of 12 foot tall pikemen with ST 12 or so would be hard put to handle reasonable-sized weapons or wear any kind of protection. But if you give them more ST so they aren't incapacitated by a basic load, and somehow protect them against missile weapons, they could be impressive.

They're supposed to have ST25 or so according to LTC2, which it turns out is too little for them to wear a meaningful amount of medieval armor. So, yeah, missile weapons are a serious problem for them.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Though they do suffer -2 on all their attacks.

That's where the phalanx formation makes them ridiculous. They can afford to AoA (Determined) on every attack with essentially no penalty for it and even if they miss there are lots of people giants attacking.

Originally Posted by Anthony

If the game system doesn't want you to create SM -1 creatures with ST 19, it should have rules to enforce that preference. It's not even particularly ridiculous, if we take something like an animated stone statue, a SM -1 stone statue probably weighs on the order of 200 lb and it's a homogenous object, so calculated ST/HP is 47...

The system clearly has no problem with characters having both high ST and low SM.

An SM -1 creature with ST47 and move 5 ought to be ridiculously powerful. GURPS seems to reflect that.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by lexington

That's where the phalanx formation makes them ridiculous. They can afford to AoA (Determined) on every attack with essentially no penalty for it and even if they miss there are lots of people giants attacking.

Well, assuming they only need to defend against melee attacks and their enemies haven't managed to break through to engagement range.

Originally Posted by lexington

An SM -1 creature with ST47 and move 5 ought to be ridiculously powerful. GURPS seems to reflect that.

But should it be more powerful than an SM 0 creature with the same stats?

Because outside a grapple or maybe fighting something small enough for SM 0 to trample, it kind of is.

[PK]

Originally Posted by lexington

So the argument, as I follow it, is that if you make completely ridiculous characters like an SM -1 creature with ST19 and examine them in a vacuum the whole system falls apart?

I haven't seen anyone say anything like that, no. The closest is when I said that realistic characters (where ST correlates at least loosely with SM) produce realistic results (bigger and stronger = better at stuff). GURPS is more than happy to support a world of ST 80, SM -2 halfling bricks and ST 8, SM +2 ogre wimps, if that's what you want. The system doesn't "fall apart," or even creak a little -- it just now produces results which make sense for that world (i.e., unrealistic ones).

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by PK

I haven't seen anyone say anything like that, no. The closest is when I said that realistic characters (where ST correlates at least loosely with SM) produce realistic results (bigger and stronger = better at stuff). GURPS is more than happy to support a world of ST 80, SM -2 halfling bricks and ST 8, SM +2 ogre wimps, if that's what you want. The system doesn't "fall apart," or even creak a little -- it just now produces results which make sense for that world (i.e., unrealistic ones).

Yeah, the system isn't the issue here. The pricing scheme may be problematic, though.

[Varyon]

Personally, I suspect one of the big issues with SM isn't so much its mechanics but the way it is implemented at the table. Bonus/penalty to hit, increased consumption (if that's tracked), equipment weight, etc are all easily applied and remembered (or frontloaded, in the case of equipment), and simply with these bits negative SM is a serious advantage, while positive SM is a serious disadvantage. Additionally, I know many groups tend to avoid grappling in any system, as it tends to be a good deal more complex than normal combat, which further advantages negative SM. Combat at Different Levels is kind of tough to remember, and how to apply them to characters of different heights isn't outright stated, but applying them can help mitigate some of the disadvantages of positive SM. SM+1 corresponds to about 3 feet over SM 0, giving the taller character a +1 to target the lower one's head and neck (negating the penalty, but requiring some specific hit locations), and gets +1 to defend (effectively -2 to be hit, for -1 net, provided you can defend), while the SM 0 character takes -1 to target the larger character's head/neck (unless using a Reach 1+ weapon) but gets a +2 bonus to target the feet/legs (negating the defense bonus but requiring specific targets). SM 0 also suffers a -1 to defense (good for a +2 to hit for the giant, net +1). SM+2 corresponds to about 9 feet of vertical difference, meaning the giant is restricted to attacking the SM0 character's head (with apparently no hit bonus) unless wielding a weapon with reach 1+ (or opting to kick), but he gets a +3 to defend (effectively -6 to be hit, for -4 net) and his foe suffers -3 to defend (effectively +6 on the attack roll, for +4 net) and needs Reach 2+ to attack anything other than the giant's feet/legs. At this point, the giant also gets the option to trample his foe, which might be useful.
Negative SM doesn't suffer as much as positive benefits from Combat at Different Levels, due to the fact that it bases things off of feet of difference, rather than relative SM's. A more realistic approach would note that the one foot/two feet/etc are appropriate for SM0 characters, and should be adjusted based on the SM of the smaller person in the fight. SM-1 is 1.5 yards height, for example, so every foot (1/6th of 2 yards) should instead be read as every 3/4 foot (9 inches), while for SM-2 it would be read as every 1/2 foot (6 inches). With properly scaled equipment, this should make negative SM suffer as much as positive benefits, moving things back toward neutrality.
Note this assumes the defense bonus for combat at different levels is appropriate. It may be more realistic to drop this (attack bonuses/penalties, and the defense penalty, should probably still apply), but that will swing things back more in favor of negative SM...

EDIT: And I should note that I don't think the discount on ST is appropriate for positive SM - while certainly such characters tend to be stronger, ST is worth just as much to them as their shorter friends, so I don't think it should be discounted. If you do discount it, it's only fair to have an equivalent Enhancement for ST for those with negative SM (making it cost more).
Also, I got distracted by Combat at Different Levels and forgot one of the points I was going to make - human ST is typically only available up to around 20 or so, and applying similar caps for other SM's can make negative SM worth less and positive SM worth more, as the former results in a taboo trait of high ST, while the latter functions as an unusual background for getting very high ST. For example, if humans are limited to ST 20, SM-1 should be limited to ST14 or 16 (depending on if you go with average of 7 or 8) and SM-2 can't get beyond ST 10. Meanwhile, SM+1 would be limited to ST 30 and SM+2 can get up to ST 50 (or 40, if you go with average of 20)!

[Ulzgoroth]

I'd quite like to see a clear writeup of how Combat at Different Levels is intended to work for different-sized characters fighting each other on a level surface.