Magic of Middle Earth

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Crystalline_Entity

Then there are the invokations and prayers to the Valar which show up occasionally in the narrative, maybe done by GM fiat, but if you wanted game mechanics maybe low levels of Divine Favour would work.

Oaths are also powerful - look at the Oaths of the Sons of Fëanor or the Oathbreakers of Dunharrow.

I would probably look at Path Magic, add -20% or -40% for Song Magic and then make new rituals for things like healing. And also look at the Thaumatology chapter on Material Magic.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by maximara

Now I think about it, are they any wizards who aren't effectively primordial spirit disguised as humans?

The name Wizard specifically refers to the Istari, though the index of my ebook copy of The Lord of the Rings says the word wizard can be used casually to refer to "a magician; anyone credited with strange powers; contemptuously," and that wizardry is "magic of the kind popularly ascribed to Wizards."

Beings other than the Wizards are said to use wizardry in Tolkien's stories. Sauron uses it to trick Gorm into revealing Barahir's location in The Silmarillion. "He chanted a song of wizardry, / Of piercing, opening, of treachery, / Revealing, uncovering, betraying" in the Lay of Leithian. But of course, Sauron is an embodied Maia.

The Elves of Nargothrond "with stealth and ambush, with wizardry and venomed dart... pursued all strangers..." They're as incarnate as we are, so they're a data point.

Some other characters like Pippin and Gimli sometimes attribute an effect or property to wizardry, but I don't consider them reliable for this purpose.

[khorboth]

Originally Posted by Anders

It's often tied to song

I haven't seen the series mentioned, and I don't want to dismiss this very true fact of song-based magic.

But it's also frequently tied to objects. Not just the rings. Kingsfoil was unlocked by noble blood. Elven rope burned Gollum. Elven blades glowed in the presense of orcs. Both versions of Grond were mighty weapons. Anduril launched the flaming sword trope. And that's just off the top of my head.

Also: impressive thread necromancy. *golf clap*

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by maximara

Now I think about it, are they any wizards who aren't effectively primordial spirit disguised as humans?

The Witch-king of Angmar was human.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by Shostak

The Witch-king of Angmar was human.

He wasn't specifically called a wizard in the books, IIRC, though he was a human magic-user. I think Tolkien had decided at some point before the LotR trilogy was finished, possibly before Fellowship was out, that 'wizard' was a term specific to the five Istarii on Middle Earth, or perhaps to incarnated Maiar (or Maiar with a specific set of limitations and abilities in their mortal forms, and we only know about five that fit it).

EDIT: When I'm more awake, I might reread this thread, and post some ideas that I had relating to GURPS magic systems in Middle Earth. Too tired, now. Main thought is that there would probably be more than one system, as Galadriel (who ought to know) seemed pretty clear that the things she did that hobbits called 'magic' were fundamentally different from what Morgoth, Sauron, et al did that the hobbits also called 'magic.'

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

He wasn't specifically called a wizard in the books, IIRC, though he was a human magic-user. I think Tolkien had decided at some point before the LotR trilogy was finished, possibly before Fellowship was out, that 'wizard' was a term specific to the five Istarii on Middle Earth, or perhaps to incarnated Maiar (or Maiar with a specific set of limitations and abilities in their mortal forms, and we only know about five that fit it).

EDIT: When I'm more awake, I might reread this thread, and post some ideas that I had relating to GURPS magic systems in Middle Earth. Too tired, now. Main thought is that there would probably be more than one system, as Galadriel (who ought to know) seemed pretty clear that the things she did that hobbits called 'magic' were fundamentally different from what Morgoth, Sauron, et al did that the hobbits also called 'magic.'

I suspect that to your average hobbit, the distinction between wizard, witch, and necromancer would be academic.

[Not]

Any sufficiently bewildering system of magic is indistinguishible from technology that you also don't understand.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

The name Wizard specifically refers to the Istari, though the index of my ebook copy of The Lord of the Rings says the word wizard can be used casually to refer to "a magician; anyone credited with strange powers; contemptuously," and that wizardry is "magic of the kind popularly ascribed to Wizards."

Beings other than the Wizards are said to use wizardry in Tolkien's stories. Sauron uses it to trick Gorm into revealing Barahir's location in The Silmarillion. "He chanted a song of wizardry, / Of piercing, opening, of treachery, / Revealing, uncovering, betraying" in the Lay of Leithian. But of course, Sauron is an embodied Maia.

The Elves of Nargothrond "with stealth and ambush, with wizardry and venomed dart... pursued all strangers..." They're as incarnate as we are, so they're a data point.

Some other characters like Pippin and Gimli sometimes attribute an effect or property to wizardry, but I don't consider them reliable for this purpose.

The one issue I have is "wizard" doesn't always mean "one who uses spells". GURPS Classic for example used "wizard" for any skill (even non magical ones) 25 or higher.

Given Tolkien was a professor of literature one has to be careful what one reads into his use of "wizard". The Elves of Nargothrond example above could just as easily be read as 'with stealth and ambush, with extreme skill (wizardry") and venomed dart... pursued all strangers...'

Heck, Edison was called the Wizard of Menlo Park and Jay Gould the Wizard of Wall Street and they didn't use spells.

[Inky]

Originally Posted by Not

Any sufficiently bewildering system of magic is indistinguishible from technology that you also don't understand.

I love it.

I think (though I'm not sure) that the Middle-earth books probably contradict themselves a bit over how magic is supposed to work. It's a lot of writing, after all. The elves of Lorien claim not to understand what is meant by "magic" and that this is simply how things work; but at other times people (who weren't using "dark magic", either) are definitely said to use definite "spells" and I'm not sure that those people weren't even sometimes elves.

'I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs that was ever used for such a purpose. I can still remember ten score of them without searching in my mind. But only a few trials, I think, will be needed; and I shall not have to call on Gimli for words of the secret dwarf-tongue that they teach to none. The opening words were Elvish, like the writing on the arch: that seems certain.'

He stepped up to the rock again, and lightly touched with his staff the silver star in the middle beneath the sign of the anvil.
Annon edhellen, edro hi ammen!
Fennas nogothrim, lasto beth lammen!
he said in a commanding voice. The silver lines faded, but the blank grey stone did not stir.

Many times he repeated these words in different order, or varied them. Then he tried other spells, one after another, speaking now faster and louder, now soft and slow. Then he spoke many single words of Elvish speech.... the doors stood fast.

Again Gandalf approached the wall, and lifting up his arms he spoke in tones of command and rising wrath. Edro, edro! he cried, and struck the rock with his staff. Open, open! he shouted, and followed it with the same command in every language that had ever been spoken in the West of Middle-earth. Then he threw his staff on the ground, and sat down in silence....

You could say that the "spells" in this case weren't so much "spells" in themselves as passwords, and could have been set to anything. But the same can't be said for "naur an edraith ammen", for instance (the words Gandalf used to light the campfire, which, I've just read, translate as "fire be, for the saving of us"). There wasn't any existing magic that that had to slot into.

So for a game set in Middle-earth you could pick various different possibilities that would fit equally well.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by maximara

Heck, Edison was called the Wizard of Menlo Park and Jay Gould the Wizard of Wall Street and they didn't use spells.

Tolkien absolutely did not use the word "wizard" to mean "very skilled person" in any of his writings. As I just pointed out, we are told exactly what he meant by it. Furthermore, I believe the slang usage didn't emerge until the 1920s — Tolkien would never have used such modern slang in his writing. When Tolkien says the Elves of Nargothrond used wizardry, he meant magic.