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Old 02-14-2019, 08:28 PM   #11
Johnny1A.2
 
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Default Re: Magic of Middle Earth

Quote:
Originally Posted by khorboth View Post
Entirely true.

The original corruption of Theoden is a good example. That seems to be some kind of magic worked by or through Grima.
No, the corruption of Théoden was entirely mundane. It was done by Grima skillfully playing off Théoden's worries, fears, and anxieties, while carefully making himself 'indispensable'. It's the sort of thing that has been done many times in real life.

I'm sure Grima's advice was in fact usually good. Probably 90% of the time, what Grima suggested was in fact the right course of action, or at least a defensible choice. That would make his subtle negative suggestions effective and poisonous. His bad advice was probably usually subtly bad, and he did this over the course of years. Of course he had help from Saruman, but that was 'mundane' help.

The damage, both to Théoden's self-confidence and hope, and to Rohan's strategic position, was done slowly, insidiously, and carefully. Sometimes his advice would seem to work because Saruman would cooperate in making it work, I'm sure Grima's advice led to some apparent successes that were actually Saruman throwing the contest.

"We defeated the raiding party from Orthanc, Grima's plan worked."
"Yeah, but the cost! We lost over fifty knights and their horses, including several of our most experienced Riders, and another hundred foot levy!"
"But at least we repelled the raiders!"

Of course, in actual fact the 'raiders' were a feint, and the whole purpose of the exercise was eroding away Rohan's strength in a pointless fight.

But not magic. Just a very, very, dangerous and able enemy agent and traitor doing his work very skillfully.

Words have a magic all their own, an entirely natural magic that can be used for evil.
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Old 02-14-2019, 11:07 PM   #12
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Default Re: Magic of Middle Earth

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Originally Posted by khorboth View Post
Gandalf's fire can be explained because he's the keeper of Narya, the Elvish ring of fire.
Perhaps it could be. But in the actual text it is explained by his having "made a special study of bewitchments with fire and light".

Quote:
But... What about the rekindling of Theoden's will to live? Is that just a metaphorical use of fire? Or some innate thing he did? Or just a rousing speech?
As shown in the bit that ravenfish quoted above, the only fire that we know is actually associated with Narya is a metaphorical one.
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Old 02-15-2019, 02:42 AM   #13
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Default Re: Magic of Middle Earth

Another scene to watch closely is the burial of the troll treasure in The Hobbit; I guess the attempts to open the gate at the Lonely Mountain and to Moria too. They teach us that magic in Middle Earth is like magic in our earth: anyone can try it, expert wizards just know more and claim to have the command of especially powerful spirits/patronage of especially powerful saints/possession of especially potent relics.

Natural magic is another important term for anyone interested in Tolkien's thought and the thought of his characters to research.
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Old 02-15-2019, 08:07 AM   #14
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Default Re: Magic of Middle Earth

Quote:
Originally Posted by khorboth View Post
The original corruption of Theoden is a good example. That seems to be some kind of magic worked by or through Grima.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2 View Post
No, the corruption of Théoden was entirely mundane.
Quote:
But not magic. Just a very, very, dangerous and able enemy agent and traitor doing his work very skillfully.

Words have a magic all their own, an entirely natural magic that can be used for evil.
I think you've just undermined your argument. Tolkien's elves say they don't understand the distinction between "magic" and "not magic" that mortals make, and the reason is that in Tolkien magic is more a matter of degree than technique. Words do have power in Tolkien, and there's no dividing line between mundane words and magic words. You speak words, you put your will behind them, and if you're skilled and powerful enough, you make things happen. There's no qualitative difference between Grima's skill at manipulating Théoden and Saruman's ability to get you to find his arguments completely reasonable. The difference is only one of degree.

Consider Tolkien himself. He created, with words, a world that millions of people deeply believe in, even while they know it's imaginary. It feels just as real to them, to me, as the world I can see outside my window. If that isn't magic, what is?
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Old 02-15-2019, 10:06 AM   #15
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Default Re: Magic of Middle Earth

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Originally Posted by khorboth View Post
We started this discussion in another thread, but the gist is... What magic system would work best for a Middle Earth game?
I would look at Adventures in Middle Earth and translate the Virtues (feats) and class abilities to GURPS.

A summary of how it work that it is understated, low key, and pervasive.

Frankly it is the best RPG implementation of Middle Earth magic I seen.

For example a Dwarven Cultural Virtue

Quote:
Broken Spells
The Dwarves of yore made mighty spells,
While hammers fell like ringing bells.


You have been taught some long-remembered fragments of old spells that retain power to this day. Some require you to cut or engrave a Runic inscription, usually in stone or metal, or sometimes carved in wood. You can learn a total of three such spells: Secrecy, Prohibition and Exclusion, and Opening and Shutting.

You learn one spell when you first select this virtue, and you may learn a new one as your undertaking during later Fellowship phases.

Spells of Opening and Shutting
This fragment must be recited in front of a door or gate, to magically lock it, or recited backwards to open it if locked. The spell has no effect on a door that has been blocked by magic and now requires a particular word to open it. Attempts to break down the door have their DC increased by 10. The spell starts working as soon as you have finished reciting it.
or this high level Scholar Class ability

Quote:
Words Unspoken
At 17th level, you may convey your thoughts without speaking aloud. When dealing with high-level Scholars, Elves, Dúnedain or other folk of power, you may hold a full conversation, speaking mind to mind. Others have a sense or intuition of your words, but cannot reply, and may misinterpret your thoughts as their own. You cannot read the minds of others with this ability.

Once per long rest, you may send brief snatches of your thought over great distances, conveying a single word or short message in dreams.
Not flashy but useful in a low key way.

The shadow system can be adapted via the Fright Check system.

The structure of the classes and virtue are such that it lends itself well for conversion over to templates, powers, advantages, and disadvantage.

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Old 08-31-2021, 08:52 PM   #16
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Default Re: Magic of Middle Earth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2 View Post
No, the corruption of Théoden was entirely mundane. It was done by Grima skillfully playing off Théoden's worries, fears, and anxieties, while carefully making himself 'indispensable'. It's the sort of thing that has been done many times in real life.

I'm sure Grima's advice was in fact usually good. Probably 90% of the time, what Grima suggested was in fact the right course of action, or at least a defensible choice. That would make his subtle negative suggestions effective and poisonous. His bad advice was probably usually subtly bad, and he did this over the course of years. Of course he had help from Saruman, but that was 'mundane' help.

The damage, both to Théoden's self-confidence and hope, and to Rohan's strategic position, was done slowly, insidiously, and carefully. Sometimes his advice would seem to work because Saruman would cooperate in making it work, I'm sure Grima's advice led to some apparent successes that were actually Saruman throwing the contest.

"We defeated the raiding party from Orthanc, Grima's plan worked."
"Yeah, but the cost! We lost over fifty knights and their horses, including several of our most experienced Riders, and another hundred foot levy!"
"But at least we repelled the raiders!"

Of course, in actual fact the 'raiders' were a feint, and the whole purpose of the exercise was eroding away Rohan's strength in a pointless fight.

But not magic. Just a very, very, dangerous and able enemy agent and traitor doing his work very skillfully.

Words have a magic all their own, an entirely natural magic that can be used for evil.
Hi! I'm only new to Tolkien's books! I've never heard about corruption in them! But if what you say is true, then I'm just delighted! To work out the world enough to even add such a sinful factor as corruption... He really is a genius! I just got motivated to go continue reading Tolkien's books! I'm reading the Lord of the Rings right now. And you, as professionals, can you advise which of the books I should read after? The guys from my favorite Tolkien books forum told me that it's better to read the Hobbit later. What do you think?

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Old 09-01-2021, 03:29 AM   #17
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Default Re: Magic of Middle Earth

It is important to remember that while he looks human Gandalf is not human but a Maiar a type of primordial spirit created by the Valar to help them shape the world. Saruman was also a Maiar as was Sauron.

Now I think about it, are they any wizards who aren't effectively primordial spirit disguised as humans?
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Old 09-01-2021, 04:40 AM   #18
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Default Re: Magic of Middle Earth

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Now I think about it, are they any wizards who aren't effectively primordial spirit disguised as humans?
Not really. The only wizards we hear off are the Istari, who are all Maiar.

GirlNextGondor has done a series on Magic in Middle Earth. It's often tied to song - see the duel between Finrod and Sauron or Luthien putting Morgoth's court to sleep.

Quote:
Then the gloom gathered; darkness growing
In Valinor, the red blood flowing
Beside the Sea, where the Noldor slew
The Foamriders, and stealing drew
Their white ships with their white sails
From lamplit havens.
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Old 09-01-2021, 07:08 AM   #19
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Default Re: Magic of Middle Earth

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Originally Posted by Anders View Post
Not really. The only wizards we hear off are the Istari, who are all Maiar.

GirlNextGondor has done a series on Magic in Middle Earth. It's often tied to song - see the duel between Finrod and Sauron or Luthien putting Morgoth's court to sleep.
Agree about Songs being tied to magic - Words too, but Song especially. It's called a "spell" for a reason :)

To be honest, if I were doing GURPS Middle-earth I'd just reskin Psionic Powers or maybe Sorcery, and change the power modifier. -10% would cover countermeasures (Neutralise et al) and having to speak or sing.

You could get abilities more cheaply if you were willing to pay the price and draw on the arts of the Enemy, modelled by an additional percentage on the power modifier for incurring corruption.

Then there are the invokations and prayers to the Valar which show up occasionally in the narrative, maybe done by GM fiat, but if you wanted game mechanics maybe low levels of Divine Favour would work.
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Old 09-01-2021, 07:11 AM   #20
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Default Re: Magic of Middle Earth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2 View Post
I'm sure Grima's advice was in fact usually good. Probably 90% of the time, what Grima suggested was in fact the right course of action, or at least a defensible choice. That would make his subtle negative suggestions effective and poisonous. His bad advice was probably usually subtly bad, and he did this over the course of years. Of course he had help from Saruman, but that was 'mundane' help.
I wonder. We know that Saruman started to wear a ring and call himself ring-maker, and we know that Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli could feel a pressuring force working against them as they chased the orcs who had abducted Merry and Pippin. I think it's quite plausible that Saruman was aiding Wormtongue from afar in the domination of Theoden: I think Saruman made a Ring of Power, probably on the order of a lesser ring, and could have been using it to help beat down Theoden's will.

No, it's not the literal possession that the Jackson film shows, but it may not have been entirely mundane.
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