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Old 11-20-2016, 05:17 PM   #11
Rasputin
 
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Default Re: Really big fights with humanoid monsters in DF

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Originally Posted by mhd View Post
I'm not a big fan of "mooks", as I prefer to apply the same rules to both sides. And to be honest, as the PCs are simply more capable, I hardly see the necessity. Whenever I use that many NPCs, I'll make a complete list, with each one getting their own line, with a few pre-rolled HT checks for each one.
Since mook NPCs down to negative HP need to make HT checks each second to act, and since they typically have HT 10-11, there isn't too much reason to not let them drop. They'll have an average of a second of action at HT 10, and they're much weaker than the PCs anyways, so those actions will be less effective, and they'll likely take more damage due to shock and lowered Dodge. (At HT 11, they have 3.7 seconds worth of acting.) Trust me, having mooks drop at 0 HP isn't losing much.
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Old 11-20-2016, 05:57 PM   #12
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Default Re: Really big fights with humanoid monsters in DF

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How do you recommend handling really big fights with generic humanoid monsters in DF? I'm talking 20 plus versus the PCs.

The fight can really get bogged down with a monster on Max HP-1, Max HP-2, knocked down with no weapon, fallen over and so on.

It's almost a chore to track their stunning, conscious and so when what's important is if they are damaging the PCs and the PCs are being forced to spens time and effort on the mobs rather than the boss.

Die at stunning, dismemberment, unconscious or 0HP? And save the complex stuff for the bosses?
FWIW, I ran a battle last spring between four PCs and about 200 orcs, goblins, and trolls. I streamlined this by picking about ten or twenty worthies scattered across the battlemap, one boss, and treated everyone else as cannon fodder - any damage taken removed them from play. I then divided the masses into "units" that would engage PCs as a group, so I could treat them as all attacking at once and having a RoF equal to the total number of attacks with Rcl 1. It looked something like this:

Warboss - Boss.
Orc Berserkers & Trolls - Worthy.
Scorpion Tower Unit x6 - Fodder.
North Gate Unit - Fodder.
South Gate Unit - Fodder.
Goblin Fodder Unit x5 - Fodder.
Reserve Squad x2 - Fodder.
Headbutting Alchemist-Fire-Strapped-to-Forehead Unit x2 - Fodder.
In the Tents Squad - Fodder.
Tree Ninja Squad - Fodder.

Considering the absolute ridiculousness of the entire battle, it worked out really well. I was able to track a lot of troop movements while the PCs did crazy things like cast Reverse Missile on the party tank, give him a salamander amulet, and douse him in alchemist's fire to serve as a distraction while the rest made ample use of Concussion, setting the forest on fire, and a steady rain of arrows. The scattered worthies allowed for orcs to get their moment of awesome (frex, when a giant berserker tried to dual wield scorpions because moar dakka) to exemplify how awesome the PCs were when they killed them. And frankly, the sheer number did a lot to make the players a touch worried before leading a right proper Diablo-style PvE slaughter.
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Old 11-20-2016, 06:53 PM   #13
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Default Re: Really big fights with humanoid monsters in DF

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Originally Posted by lachimba View Post
How do you recommend handling really big fights with generic humanoid monsters in DF? I'm talking 20 plus versus the PCs.
Try making them a swarm. See the Made Monsters box on page 31 in the "It's a Threat!" article in Pyramid #3/77. I tried to remember where I saw that for the fight I ran with a buttload of kobolds, but only found some rules in GURPS Horror which were kind of awkward.
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Old 11-20-2016, 11:41 PM   #14
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Default Re: Really big fights with humanoid monsters in DF

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Is there a reason you aren't just using the fodder rules that already exist?
Yes, I don't like 1 HP monsters for many reasons.

I don't think auto kill with a tap should be a thing. I do like not tracking damage for them though so perhaps it's roll vs HT with a penalty for damage? Or a 50/50 roll for death after any damage? With auto death if the attack does more than a few points of damage.
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Old 11-21-2016, 12:20 AM   #15
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Default Re: Really big fights with humanoid monsters in DF

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they're attacking in waves,
Similar trick here.

I've got a game where the PC's are headed to a situation where they'll be attacked by an essentially infinite supply of zombies. But instead of five PCs vs a squillion zombies, it's going to be five PCs attacked by a dozen zombies, with continuous reinforcement of the zombie side until the PCs figure out how to stop it.
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Old 11-21-2016, 03:23 AM   #16
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Default Re: Really big fights with humanoid monsters in DF

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Originally Posted by lachimba View Post
Yes, I don't like 1 HP monsters for many reasons.

I don't think auto kill with a tap should be a thing. I do like not tracking damage for them though so perhaps it's roll vs HT with a penalty for damage? Or a 50/50 roll for death after any damage? With auto death if the attack does more than a few points of damage.
When I ran DND 4e and we got to higher levels, there were so many area attacks available to them, I made it so area spells would only bloody (half kill) 1 HP mooks. Later I was toying with faster combats with hordes and I made it so a hit from anyone but a striker (High dps) would only bloody and of course any hit would drop a bloodied mook.

When I run DF I was thinking of doing something similar - any hit from a dps (knight, Barbarian, thief with backstab, swashbuckler attack to any fragile bits - vitals, eye, etc.) would kill, anything else would bloody. Now I'm thinking of stealing your idea - HT roll at, say, -1/3 HP damage. The toughest "mooks" (around DR4, 13 HP) would go down to a Barbarian swing about half the time, real fodder (11HP, DR 1 or 2) would go down about 90% of the time.

Use real damage/dr/wounding to make the dps Barbarians and Weaponmaster Knights feel special and a 1d explosive fireball would have a real chance of taking down a couple of weak mooks.

That's a very rough draft off the cuff but worth testing for me.
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Old 11-21-2016, 04:24 AM   #17
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Default Re: Really big fights with humanoid monsters in DF

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Now I'm thinking of stealing your idea - HT roll at, say, -1/3 HP damage. The toughest "mooks" (around DR4, 13 HP) would go down to a Barbarian swing about half the time, real fodder (11HP, DR 1 or 2) would go down about 90% of the time.
Anything that changes GURPS assumptions will have consequences.


RAW for dealing with fodder you can grapple, do damage (either by hitting, spell etc), cast a non damage spell, use social skills and probably a few other options that I haven't even thought of.

The 1 HP Fodder I think changes things too far and makes doing 1 HP of damage the META to the consequence of all other tactics (including doing 2 through infinity HP damage). Why grapple a mook and neck snap him if you can just roll to hit? Why stun them when 1HP damage will be easier?

(It also almost removes HT (or HP) as a point of differentiation for your mooks.)


On the other hand tracking all those states is not fun (for me!) Even tracking 1HP is a hassle and if I'm going to do that why not track HP and just have them die at 0 or 1/2HP and so on?


So yeah, I think a compromise is to make no tracking of HP, but a roll to die.

The roll has to be easy enough that they very rarely make it past 0HP, let alone -HP or -5xHP.

With damage as the penalty a mook with HT 10 will auto die at 8HP of damage. So no need to roll

If you don't want to roll for damage then its 3.5 per die (then times the wounding modifier) to save time. So no need to roll for 4d damage attacks and so on, but yes for a 1d staff tap.

There might be a few at HT 10 that survive 6 or 7HP of damage, but I'll steal from elsewhere and say just make the mook a worthy if they make a roll like that! Repeated 4 HP of damage that doesn't lead to death might be annoying too and warrant some consideration.
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Old 11-21-2016, 07:32 AM   #18
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Default Re: Really big fights with humanoid monsters in DF

I've really come around to the mook rules as written in DF2 over the years. 1HP isn't much, but fodder can still have DR (so the weakest attacks may fail to penetrate and fail to take down a mook), and they can still make defenses. Fodder rules really help make non-combat specialists feel like they didn't waste all of their points in weapon skills and DX (also thinking here of a recent thread about wizards and DX).
If using the base rules, a wizard really can't do anything in battle that's useful other than cast spells--with the fodder rules, he can always take a staff swing at a passing kobold and hope for a kill.

It's important though to not make all the enemies fodder, otherwise the Barbarian feels like his massive investment in ST is wasted. High damage fighters get to focus on the worthies and bosses who have lots of HP to smash through, while fighters with lots of attacks can go after just about any kind of enemy and feel good about it. Wizards can potentially become mook-killing specialists if they focus on area damage (which is another feature in my mind, since area/explosive spells are quite weak on damage). So the fodder rules not only simplify combat greatly (no need to track HP at all for mooks!), they also help with niche protection, as everyone has a clear role to play in battle. And some mooks can still be relatively difficult to take down if they have good DR and defenses, so you can up the challenge that way (not to mention giving them scary attacks!)

Generally, I tell my players that when I take a mook off the map, the mook is either dead, unconscious, playing dead, cowering in fear, or fleeing. My taking it off the map is an abstraction, a promise to the players that this mook will have no effect on the remainder of the battle, in exchange for which they don't try to hold me accountable for how many are actually dead.

After the battle, if it's important to the PCs that, for example, no witnesses survive, I'll roll some dice to randomly determine how many mooks are in a position to try to flee, and we'll quickly determine whether any of them get away. Similarly if they want to interrogate the enemy, collect teeth, take prisoners, etc.
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Old 11-21-2016, 07:48 AM   #19
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Default Re: Really big fights with humanoid monsters in DF

As for removing HP and HT as a distinguishing features for mooks, I have two responses:
1) Who cares? They're NPCs with plenty of other stats to distinguish them.
2) HT is still used to resist spells, poisons, afflictions, etc. HP is still used to calculate slam damage. And if you have an enemy whose high HP you want to showcase--call it a worthy! But since fighting 50 enemies, each with loads of HP, is likely going to be a boring slog, maybe mix it up and include some mooks too...
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Old 11-21-2016, 09:45 AM   #20
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Default Re: Really big fights with humanoid monsters in DF

I gave it out normally. However, I tend to be on Virtual Table Top which has wonderful markers for status ailments and faster rolling mechanisms, so this is probably not ideal for in person where you have to roll the dice.

One thing you could do is have groups share a single attack roll and similar ideas. In this scenario you use margins of success/failure to determine what happens. I know GURPS Zombies goes into this concept a bit due to dealing with massive hordes of zombies.
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