Uncontrollable + Costs Fatigue =?

[transmetahuman]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Fair enough - I didn't consider the way it could be manipulated as a dodge for the FP cost. It would certainly be a little unreliable - after all, you don't know exactly what your ability will decide to do, who it will attack etc. With a really flexible ability like Control Weather (the one that brought up this question in the first place) I'm not sure I'd trust an Uncontrollable manifestation to safely solve the problem...

Although this does bring up the question - if the ability has Takes Extra Time 2, what happens to the Uncontrollable manifestation?

• does it force the PC to take a concentrate action for four seconds?
• or does the Uncontrollable ability just wait four seconds after the PC fails his self-control roll before it starts doing its thing?

I'd look at the intent when stacking them. If the Takes Extra Time is another aspect of the character's lack of control of the ability, intended to be bought off with experience and mastery, I might make the subconscious use be instant, or take extra time that doesn't limit the character's conscious actions. The Takes Extra Time might only affect his conscious use of the ability, or his subconscious might need as much time as his conscious mind does.

In the case of Uncontrollable shapeshifting, where the built-in extra time represents a slow physical alteration, I'd make the character lose those actions.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by transmetahuman

I'd look at the intent when stacking them. If the Takes Extra Time is another aspect of the character's lack of control of the ability, intended to be bought off with experience and mastery, I might make the subconscious use be instant, or take extra time that doesn't limit the character's conscious actions. The Takes Extra Time might only affect his conscious use of the ability, or his subconscious might need as much time as his conscious mind does.

In the case of Uncontrollable shapeshifting, where the built-in extra time represents a slow physical alteration, I'd make the character lose those actions.

So the ultimate way to disable a character becomes an Affliction: Advantage with severely limited Alternate Form, for a net 13 points/level.

[LemmingLord]

Originally Posted by Bruno

If a character has an advantage that's Uncontrollable and Costs Fatigue, and the advantage switches on without him - does he still have to pay the fatigue cost for the advantage switching on and doing it's thing?

That could get deadly really quick...

I would say that it won't stop when you reach 0 fatigue; but it will stop when you are knocked unconcious unless you've taken an ability that stays on typically when you are unconscious..

[transmetahuman]

Originally Posted by Molokh

So the ultimate way to disable a character becomes an Affliction: Advantage with severely limited Alternate Form, for a net 13 points/level.

The whole issue of Afflictions of advantages with crippling limitations needs to be examined - I'm sure there are worse you could do with Nuisance Effect. But I thought the board had pretty much come to a consensus that when afflicting a character with AF, the character doing the afflicting should have to do the concentrating, so this would be a non-issue.

[David Johnston]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Although this does bring up the question - if the ability has Takes Extra Time 2, what happens to the Uncontrollable manifestation?
[/LIST]

Nothing. At least I'd rule the "takes extra time" limitation would apply only to deliberate uses of the power.

[carllarson]

This may not help, but its how I do it with one of my players; TK with area, emanation, and both unconscious and uncontrollable, with costs fatigue 1/min. From my interpretation, it means when she stresses enough to kick it in, each minute until she either passes out exhausted or regains control of herself, she loses 1FP. Although, until she realizes its her doing the poltergeisting, she won't be actively trying to control herself because of the TK, but more for other reasons.

[Bruno]

So I broke down and emailed Kromm about all this, and here's his answer:

Originally Posted by Kromm

An Uncontrollable ability acts on its own, as if possessed, but can't do anything that's beyond the scope of a conscious use of that ability. If it could, well, that would give annoying players a blunt instrument with which to batter their GM into allowing them to spend earned points to buy more-potent abilities which might not be appropriate. Thus, if a limitation puts restrictions on where, when, or how often the ability can function, degrades its physical parameters (duration, range, etc.), or anything similar, then that limitation's drawbacks apply to all uses -- controlled or uncontrolled.

On the other hand, if a limitation imposes a dependency on a conscious act by the user -- e.g., conducting a magic ritual, spending FP, taking a Ready maneuver, or flying at full Move -- then this need not apply to uncontrolled uses. The player should have evidence enough to conclude, rightly or wrongly, that some evil, invisible entity is spending FP or conducting rituals to set off his ability.

I think that answers all your questions, really.

(As usual, you're free to share my answer -- complete with typos -- on forums, mailing lists, etc.)

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Kromm

An Uncontrollable ability acts on its own, as if possessed, but can't do anything that's beyond the scope of a conscious use of that ability. If it could, well, that would give annoying players a blunt instrument with which to batter their GM into allowing them to spend earned points to buy more-potent abilities which might not be appropriate. Thus, if a limitation puts restrictions on where, when, or how often the ability can function, degrades its physical parameters (duration, range, etc.), or anything similar, then that limitation's drawbacks apply to all uses -- controlled or uncontrolled.

On the other hand, if a limitation imposes a dependency on a conscious act by the user -- e.g., conducting a magic ritual, spending FP, taking a Ready maneuver, or flying at full Move -- then this need not apply to uncontrolled uses. The player should have evidence enough to conclude, rightly or wrongly, that some evil, invisible entity is spending FP or conducting rituals to set off his ability.

Hmm... So your first question's official answer is "No FP spent on uncontrolled use". The answer to your second question is not so clear, but I assume that it is meant that the Extra Time limit does not apply either. I can live with that assumption... the first, though not intuitive (to me), does keep the modifier from being a crippling one if combined with such other types of limiters. I suppose it makes sense, considering that the given value makes it a minor limitation for most traits.

[roguebfl]

Reading the reasoning Kromm gave I would say "Cost Fatigue" would depend on how the ability define.

if the FP is spend from the effort of activating then it's not spent via uncontrollible.

but if it is defined like Power Pack's Energizer, where the Power is littly draws then engergy from the Energy Reserve, then the FP is spent.

[transmetahuman]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Reading the reasoning Kromm gave I would say "Cost Fatigue" would depend on how the ability define.

if the FP is spend from the effort of activating then it's not spent via uncontrollible.

but if it is defined like Power Pack's Energizer, where the Power is littly draws then engergy from the Energy Reserve, then the FP is spent.

Agreed. That's a good example of an exception.