[Powers / Psionics] Help with Uncontrollable

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

I knew I'd seen this answer from Kromm somewhere before. It was a email Bruno sent out and got an answer from here.

In short, Uncontrollable does its own thing and does not occupy the character who has it.

... Have I said how much I admire your search fu?

I was even involved in that thread (but it doesn't strike a recollective chord), albeit mostly with respect to temporal limitations. I note that I took a position opposite to the one I was espousing in this thread, to which I can only say - Kids 🙄😅

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

... Have I said how much I admire your search fu?

I was even involved in that thread (but it doesn't strike a recollective chord), albeit mostly with respect to temporal limitations. I note that I took a position opposite to the one I was espousing in this thread, to which I can only say - Kids 🙄😅

Thanks. I have a pretty good memory. :-) My grandfather taught me methods of loci when I was like...four. Made it into a game. Sometimes it takes time to remember where something is in the Memory Warehouse, but once I start thinking about it it usually tumbles loose.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by Plane

I suppose if one did not take compartmentalized mind to spare oneself the maneuver costs there could be some other options...

Like say for example you allow an Ally or Dependent or Enemy to use their maneuvers to activate the ability?

It's just clearly you should have some kind of character out there doing the actions. If it's literally just your subconscious then you're the only character available to pay those costs.

Someone who wants to make their own attacks while the ability uses their attacks might for example choose to do something like "All-Out Attack Double" (the rogue ability can only use ONE of the attacks, the PC can use the other) or buy Extra Attack?

I'm picturing someone who buys 10 different Innate Attacks (each with Uncontrollable) and gets 10 free attacks per second (one for each separate Uncontrollable ability) at various enemies while retaining complete maneuver control of his own.

That type of thing is dangerous to allies but not really much of a drawback if you have no allies around to endanger. You wouldn't have any reason to fight this with Will roll in all-out battles of you vs dozens of baddies.

There are no 'maneuver costs'. That notion is an interpolation without any basis in the rules. The character is not using any sort of extra maneuver. Characters don't use a maneuver to keep their heart beating, to digest food, etc. And likewise they don't use a maneuver when an Uncontrollable power goes off. It is up to the GM to ensure that such activations are suitably disadvantageous to match the point discount.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

The Player can't power-game this limitation because no matter how much the player states that they "focus on the evil vampire" the GM is the only one making decisions on what happens. "Sorry, your psychokinesis throws a cabinet out the 10th floor window [to the misfortune of anyone down there] instead, perhaps some suppressed irrational to escape the situation by jumping through the window?"

That would be the GM ignoring the "enemies before allies" instructions though: I like cabinets, I consider them friends, they wouldn't be prioritized.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

I knew I'd seen this answer from Kromm somewhere before.
It was a email Bruno sent out and got an answer from here.

In short, Uncontrollable does its own thing and does not occupy the character who has it.

Originally Posted by Kromm

..can't do anything that's beyond the scope of a conscious use of that ability
.. if a limitation imposes a dependency on a conscious act by the user -- e.g., conducting a magic ritual, spending FP, taking a Ready maneuver, or flying at full Move -- then this need not apply to uncontrolled uses

Although this supports the idea that the advantage's owner doesn't spend the FP or the actions/maneuvers it still implies that SOMETHING out there does...

Otherwise compare:

Uncontrollable -20%
Costs 6 HP per use -60%

vs

Uncontrollable -20%
Unconscious Only -30%

The 2nd one is more expensive even though it's less useful, unless of course you are charging that 6 HP per use to whatever malign entity is acting through you.

If you aren't paying the operations costs then something out there ought to be, otherwise there's bounds for abuse. Which is why I'm thinking defining either an Ally/Dependent/Enemy with finite resources could keep it in check.

In the case where it's not Unconscious Only you could probably take a "Granted by Familiar" instead, except perhaps it's an untargetable familiar, sort of like an absentee Patron?

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

There are no 'maneuver costs'. That notion is an interpolation without any basis in the rules.

Using abilities without their standard activation costs is "beyond the scope of a conscious use".

Having someone else pay the cost of your abilities, on the other hand, has precedent in that 'healing pill' thing in GURPS Powers, so that's fine.

Basically if it's actually an external entity paying FP/maneuvers instead of you then it should actually be defined with stats or else what stops some 1pt innate attack from drawing on millions un inexhaustible FP for Godlike Extra Effort to nuke things around you?

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

The character is not using any sort of extra maneuver. Characters don't use a maneuver to keep their heart beating, to digest food, etc. And likewise they don't use a maneuver when an Uncontrollable power goes off. It is up to the GM to ensure that such activations are suitably disadvantageous to match the point discount.

Powers attacking enemies first is basically just disadvantageous if you're trying to avoid a fight (or at least avoid initiating one) but it's actually advantageous in the case of battle being started against you, which is one of those situations which tends to cause stress and cause Uncontrollable to go off.

Uncontrollable is even given a -10% for Insubstantial in powers because under stress you could go insubstantial in situations you didn't choose to: but that could actually be a good thing in a stressful situation since you save yourself a ready maneuver, if Uncontrollable means by passing ready maneuvers.

In the case of the ability which has it, the savings aren't as obvious/large since the ready is dropped to a free action via Reflexive's built-in Reduced time.

If I had "Takes Extra Time 3" on my insubstantiality and was unable to turn insubstantial in the middle of getting beaten up (keep getting stunned to Do Nothing ... can't do consecutive Readies) then Uncontrollable would be a godsend to help me escape danger.

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by Plane

That would be the GM ignoring the "enemies before allies" instructions though: I like cabinets, I consider them friends, they wouldn't be prioritized.

It does say that it goes after enemies before friends, I'm not so sure it needs to efficiently prioritize eliminating hostiles in the ongoing fight. It is described as hostile or mischievous. It clearly isn't you ally, but if it starts killing people it will start with those threatening you first.

If your character due to some strange and powerful delusion considers mindless furniture to literally be "friends" then I might be tempted to have you start killing your allies if they endanger your furniture friends. (Though realistically it sounds like trying to abuse the letter of the rule, and I just don't permit that at my table)

[Tinman]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

I knew I'd seen this answer from Kromm somewhere before. It was a email Bruno sent out and got an answer from here.

In short, Uncontrollable does its own thing and does not occupy the character who has it.

Awesome! Thank you very much Mr Rice.
Kromm's answer is clear & useful.

PS: Ditto on what shrubbery said about your search-fu.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Tinman

Awesome! Thank you very much Mr Rice.
Kromm's answer is clear & useful.

PS: Ditto on what shrubbery said about your search-fu.

Glad I could help.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

If your character due to some strange and powerful delusion considers mindless furniture to literally be "friends" then I might be tempted to have you start killing your allies if they endanger your furniture friends.

I guess an interesting question is whether it operates on the basis of who a character thinks are allies vs who actually are.

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by Plane

I guess an interesting question is whether it operates on the basis of who a character thinks are allies vs who actually are.

My immediate thought thought is that it should be based on what the character thinks, but on second thought either would work.

A character who has uncontrollable psychic powers might target based on some some twisted subconscious feelings or thoughts.

A character with out of control spirit powers might have the powers target based on who the spirit(s?) thinks are allies, etc. As long as the spirit's sense of allies/not allies isn't completely backwards it is probably fine.