GURPS Meta-Tech

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by thrash

I am confused by the Meta-Tech Device Table: why is Dollar Cost based on campaign starting wealth (based in turn on campaign tech level, B28) rather than the starting wealth at the native tech level where the device can be produced? It makes a significant difference in the cost.

The way I interpret it, an MTD's price is meant to be fairly set for what it does, and thus uses the campaign's Average Starting Wealth. All else being equal, a TL 0^ stone slab and a TL 12^ container that function like advanced versions of UT's Chrysalis Machine are worth the same amount to the characters (the two would probably have different Origins, and thus would likely have a bit of difference in price due to whatever baggage their Origins bring with them, but that's already accounted for).

That said, if you want an item to use this price as what it costs at its original TL, you could certainly do so - which would make those TL 0^ Resurrection Altars a tiny fraction of the cost of contemporary Advanced Chrysalis Machines in a TL 12 campaign. You can think of this as a Ubiquity adjustment - At TL 8, TL 0 technology that is still useful will be extremely common while TL 9 technology, if it exists, will be rather rare (3x the cost of what a TL 8 object that does the same thing, if it existed, would cost).

[thrash]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

I had some rules on item "generation" costs but removed them. Why? Because the rest of GURPS doesn't do it either. If you want a Peacemaker it costs the same at TL5 as it does at TL8. So basing it on the starting wealth of the campaign kind of normalizes it with the rest of GURPS.

I'm sorry, but unless I'm still misunderstanding something that's exactly what it doesn't do.

The Peacemaker has the same cost regardless of campaign starting wealth. Gene Starwind's Caster gun, however, is priced differently if it shows up in Gene's TL10 campaign vs. a campaign set at its TL12^ origins, despite having the same statistics.

Basing the Meta-Tech Device Table on the starting wealth of the item's native TL rather than campaign TLs would remove the variation.

Edit to add: Let me ask a different way: what campaign TL were the examples calculated at? what would their costs be in a TL5 kitchen-sink pulp campaign?

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by thrash

Let me ask a different way: what campaign TL were the examples calculated at? what would their costs be in a TL5 kitchen-sink pulp campaign?

They weren't really. The initial values we used were those of David Pulver and about half way in when I changed how the devices were to be created we changed the values. My thought process was pretty simple: smaller stuff may be easier to damage, but it's hard to target, easier to conceal, and more portable. So smaller stuff costed more. Bigger stuff is in the reverse so it costed less. We went through a lot of iterations for costs and the one we settled on was the one that got published. Other than that, there is no underlying formula - it just costs what it costs.

This was one of the big reasons I included the rarity rules. If TL5 stuff costs less because it's more common in a TL6 setting, then just reduce its value with whatever rarity modifier you feel works. There are a lot of knobs to adjust to get the exact feel you want.

[thrash]

Then allow me to answer my own questions. The example devices were clearly priced at their native TL, as indicated after the names. If one were to use them (or objects with identical statistics) in a hypothetical TL5 anything-goes pulp campaign, however, the prices would be different:

                        Listed Cost*      TL5 Cost
Aja’s Healing Paste             462           9240
Amulet Arcane                474000         237000
Bounding Boots               315000          78750
Enchanted RTG                384750         128250
Excalibur                 293040000     1465200000
Healing Sarcophagus            8850          58995
Mojo Bag                    1235520        3088800
Mule-Frame Exoskeleton       665280         110880
Personal Chronowarp         2732000         136600
Power Ring                 13650000        1365000

*Not including the mundane elements, which would not change.

This is the opposite of "Peacemakers cost the same regardless of campaign TL." It isn't about "feel" -- it's a direct consequence of the rules as written.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by thrash

Then allow me to answer my own questions. The example devices were clearly priced at their native TL, as indicated after the names. If one were to use them (or objects with identical statistics) in a hypothetical TL5 anything-goes pulp campaign, however, the prices would be different

Yes. This is intentional. That's how I wrote it. This is how psychotronic generators worked. This is how metatronic generators worked. This is how meta-tech works. If you don't like it, just change it. That's how GURPS works.

If you must have a rule, then reverse how high TLs enhance cost: 1 TL below is 1/2, 2 TLs is 1/4, 3 TLs is 1/8, etc.

[SRoach]

You couldn't pay me enough to both be a game designer, and visit the boards where my efforts were routinely folded, spindled, and mutilated in discourse.

[JulianLW]

Is the Anomaly limitation on Warp on page 28 supposed to be -0%? It seems like a significant limitation. Is there a 1 missing there?

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by SRoach

You couldn't pay me enough to both be a game designer, and visit the boards where my efforts were routinely folded, spindled, and mutilated in discourse.

There are downsides to every gig.

Originally Posted by JulianLW

Is the Anomaly limitation on Warp on page 28 supposed to be -0%? It seems like a significant limitation. Is there a 1 missing there?

No. I originally costed it at -25%, but Sean pointed out how it was basically just a few because even though baddies could follow you...so could your allies. And easily enough too. After some thought I agreed with him. Fun fact, it's original name was "Tesseration."

[Christopher R. Rice]

One thing I feel has come up enough that I want to point out: GURPS Meta-Tech was meant to be fully compatible with 4/e. This means the wealth rules too. My writing mandate did not cover that and it would have been inappropriate for the supplement anyways.

I tried to cover as much ground as I could for that aspect by allowing the GM to move the dial up or down on a item's cost. That sounds like a cop out, but it isn't. I literally cannot design a book around the individual tastes, campaigns, etc. of all GMs from now to the future. I also cannot change a major aspect of the rules like how wealth works. Like in all GURPS games, GMs are going to need to customize a bit.

So please, let's keep that out of this conversation - it makes me feel like I did a bad job. And if you don't like the book or rules - just don't comment. I get it. There are books I don't like either, but I try not to keep others from enjoying them. It's not cool to crap on the fun others are having. Let people like what they like.

[zoncxs]

Originally Posted by thrash

...The example devices were clearly priced at their native TL, as indicated after the names....

I think you are remembering the rule in BS wrong.

Cost for items that are from a higher TL than the campaign TL have an increase in cost (double for each level) while items from a lower TL have no change in cost. So your list should reflect as:

                        Listed Cost*      TL5 Cost
Aja’s Healing Paste             465            465
Amulet Arcane                474000         948000
Bounding Boots               315000        2520640
Enchanted RTG                384750        1539000
Excalibur                  29305680      293056800
Healing Sarcophagus            8850           8850
Mojo Bag                    1235520        1235520
Mule-Frame Exoskeleton       665280       10644480
Personal Chronowarp         2734200      349977600
Power Ring                 13687800      438009600

The TL listed is just like any other item in GURPS, its the TL that the item is first introduced/produced.

An Axe is a TL 0 item and cost $50 to buy, no matter what TL your campaign is since its a TL 0 item. The cost does not go up because the TL of the campaign differs, nor does it go down.

An Edged Rapier is TL 4 and cost $1000, as long as the TL of your campaign is TL 4 or higher, at TL 3 a player can buy it only if you introduce a TL 4 culture/city/etc. to the game and allow them to buy it, but the price should then be $2000. Or if you allow the player to buy Higher TL then they can also buy it at the start for $2000. In a TL 0 game, this sword cost $16000!

Compared to an Edged Rapier in a TL 8 game, it still only cost $1000 (But now its fine by default at least).