GURPS Meta-Tech

[ravenfish]

Since the price for Meta-Tech gear is based on the point-cost of the advantages it mimics, if you want the gear but your character isn't supposed to be rich enough to afford it, it's simple enough to buy it with points (modified with the appropriate Gadget limitations) rather than money.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

Since the price for Meta-Tech gear is based on the point-cost of the advantages it mimics, if you want the gear but your character isn't supposed to be rich enough to afford it, it's simple enough to buy it with points (modified with the appropriate Gadget limitations) rather than money.

I previously suggested, based on SM -9 being 0.5xSW per point in Meta Tech and +0% as a Gadget, simply taking the Meta Tech price as a multiple of SW and dividing the multiplier by 2 to get the point cost to be able to purchase the item with points rather than cash. I could see adjusting this divisor from 2 to 5 to account for MTD's typically having much less DR than 24 (the point at which Breakable is +0%) and generally being able to be stolen. That won't help with being able to purchase the Epic Superhero version of Excalibur from the book, however.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

Since the price for Meta-Tech gear is based on the point-cost of the advantages it mimics, if you want the gear but your character isn't supposed to be rich enough to afford it, it's simple enough to buy it with points (modified with the appropriate Gadget limitations) rather than money.

Originally Posted by Varyon

I previously suggested, based on SM -9 being 0.5xSW per point in Meta Tech and +0% as a Gadget, simply taking the Meta Tech price as a multiple of SW and dividing the multiplier by 2 to get the point cost to be able to purchase the item with points rather than cash. I could see adjusting this divisor from 2 to 5 to account for MTD's typically having much less DR than 24 (the point at which Breakable is +0%) and generally being able to be stolen. That won't help with being able to purchase the Epic Superhero version of Excalibur from the book, however.

This is a really good point.
With all the crunch in this book building a larger variety of gadgets than just with Basic or Powers is possible. But you still know the points that went into them before converting that into cash.
So that helps those who do want to use points.
However, the ubiquity modifier can be used to alter the point costs, just as it does for cash. Meaning a gadget that mimics a common advantage can get a discount or surcharge based on how common its supposed to be in the setting.

[Scriptorian]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I previously suggested, based on SM -9 being 0.5xSW per point in Meta Tech and +0% as a Gadget, simply taking the Meta Tech price as a multiple of SW and dividing the multiplier by 2 to get the point cost to be able to purchase the item with points rather than cash. I could see adjusting this divisor from 2 to 5 to account for MTD's typically having much less DR than 24 (the point at which Breakable is +0%) and generally being able to be stolen. That won't help with being able to purchase the Epic Superhero version of Excalibur from the book, however.

According to my table, SM -10 has the 0.5 starting wealth multiplier; -9 SM is 0.4. But between all the other limits packaged into metatech, like the aforementioned limited DR, it seems like -10 SM is indeed the point at which metatech becomes theoretically equivalent to it's non-gear advantage. Which lines up with one character point of Signature Gear being worth 0.5 starting wealth.

It just nearly invalidates all the work I did trying to bootstrap a crafting system based on the unverified assumption that metatech prices were instead based on the 0.10 starting wealth ratio of "Trading Points for Money". *facepalm*

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Scriptorian

According to my table, SM -10 has the 0.5 starting wealth multiplier; -9 SM is 0.4. But between all the other limits packaged into metatech, like the aforementioned limited DR, it seems like -10 SM is indeed the point at which metatech becomes theoretically equivalent to it's non-gear advantage. Which lines up with one character point of Signature Gear being worth 0.5 starting wealth.

It just nearly invalidates all the work I did trying to bootstrap a crafting system based on the unverified assumption that metatech prices were instead based on the 0.10 starting wealth ratio of "Trading Points for Money". *facepalm*

:-( I'm sorry. It shouldn't invalidate anything. Your approach is sound and if it works for your game use it!

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

• GURPS Monster Hunters Power-Ups 1: The techie invention system in the back was the prototype for the system I ended up ripping out of Meta-Tech and can be used to quickly determine devices made in game.

I think there's room for a Meta-Tech supplement that takes that appendix and works out how different Meta-Tech Origins would change it.

[Scriptorian]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

:-( I'm sorry. It shouldn't invalidate anything. Your approach is sound and if it works for your game use it!

So actually my gut overreacted. For one thing, the math ends up the exact same as I originally had it if I just set metatech prices to the equivalent of Common. For another, the underlying logic I arrived at still works at standard prices if you just assume they involve a significant amount of overhead in actually getting the product sold for any character without Wealthy or higher.

The short version: I noticed a bit ago how 1 character point worth of cash-for-points (with the convention that 200 hours/~1 month of work producing 1 character point), you actually end up with basically the Average monthly salary in the Basic Set minus the monthly cost of living. E.g. in TL 8, a character can produce $2,000 worth as a character point, which is exactly the excess of his salary of $2,600 minus his Status 0 $600 cost of living. Hence a character in a crafting profession can produce $2,000 worth of gear a month, and assume the amount he makes back covers his full monthly salary. This is, of course, really the exact same thing as RMP-style crafting/Devotional Enchantment, just conceptualized as cash instead of points.

So for crafting metatech gear at Common ubiquity, divide the final cost of the item by 1/10th campaign starting cash to get the number of months required. Except actually, the time required stays the same regardless of Ubiquity. For Uncommon, you divide by 1/50th campaign starting wealth. The catch is that a character requires Wealthy to get back the the full value of the item (thus maintaining their monthly "salary" of 5 times a regular character); lacking the same the logistical and social implications of higher Wealth, a character either just can't get the same market price, or otherwise has a significant overhead in actually getting it sold.

Or if you only care about crafting gear and not selling it, you can skip all the starting wealth multiplication and just apply the BMC and MC to the character point values directly and assume the standard 1 character point/month to get the crafting time. So again, this is really just RPM crafting using Metatech modifiers instead of Gadget Limitations.

Then there's also room for shortening crafting time by the value of materials/special reagents or even character points used in the process (as appropriate for the origin). Though this would be separate from having to also craft or otherwise provide the base item.

Now I'm just trying to work out something along the lines of Quick-and-Dirty enchantment or Quick Gadgeteering, so minor or one-shot items don't take so long to produce. This may involve somehow integrating metatech with RPM charms. I'm still stewing on that idea.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

I think there's room for a Meta-Tech supplement that takes that appendix and works out how different Meta-Tech Origins would change it.

I'd love to do that - but Meta-Tech has to sell in numbers that cannot be ignored.

Originally Posted by Scriptorian

So actually my gut overreacted. For one thing, the math ends up the exact same as I originally had it if I just set metatech prices to the equivalent of Common. For another, the underlying logic I arrived at still works at standard prices if you just assume they involve a significant amount of overhead in actually getting the product sold for any character without Wealthy or higher.

The short version: I noticed a bit ago how 1 character point worth of cash-for-points (with the convention that 200 hours/~1 month of work producing 1 character point), you actually end up with basically the Average monthly salary in the Basic Set minus the monthly cost of living. E.g. in TL 8, a character can produce $2,000 worth as a character point, which is exactly the excess of his salary of $2,600 minus his Status 0 $600 cost of living. Hence a character in a crafting profession can produce $2,000 worth of gear a month, and assume the amount he makes back covers his full monthly salary. This is, of course, really the exact same thing as RMP-style crafting/Devotional Enchantment, just conceptualized as cash instead of points.

So for crafting metatech gear at Common ubiquity, divide the final cost of the item by 1/10th campaign starting cash to get the number of months required. Except actually, the time required stays the same regardless of Ubiquity. For Uncommon, you divide by 1/50th campaign starting wealth. The catch is that a character requires Wealthy to get back the the full value of the item (thus maintaining their monthly "salary" of 5 times a regular character); lacking the same the logistical and social implications of higher Wealth, a character either just can't get the same market price, or otherwise has a significant overhead in actually getting it sold.

Or if you only care about crafting gear and not selling it, you can skip all the starting wealth multiplication and just apply the BMC and MC to the character point values directly and assume the standard 1 character point/month to get the crafting time. So again, this is really just RPM crafting using Metatech modifiers instead of Gadget Limitations.

Then there's also room for shortening crafting time by the value of materials/special reagents or even character points used in the process (as appropriate for the origin). Though this would be separate from having to also craft or otherwise provide the base item.

Now I'm just trying to work out something along the lines of Quick-and-Dirty enchantment or Quick Gadgeteering, so minor or one-shot items don't take so long to produce. This may involve somehow integrating metatech with RPM charms. I'm still stewing on that idea.

So one thing I've done in the past for magic items is to create "enchantment points" that are like IP, but only for the purpose of providing points to create things. You can also use ATR + Super Speed to reduce times. I've allowed gadgeteers to have 1 level (for Regular Gadgeteer) and 3 levels (for Quick Gadgeteer). Don't forget Time Spent modifiers to quicken the time either. If you go that route a technique might be in order. Or even a wildcard technique that covers all instances of enchantment for Quick and Dirty items only (so put a limit on the maximum point value).

[thrash]

I am confused by the Meta-Tech Device Table: why is Dollar Cost based on campaign starting wealth (based in turn on campaign tech level, B28) rather than the starting wealth at the native tech level where the device can be produced? It makes a significant difference in the cost.

For example, a chrysalis machine (UT201-2) costs $500,000 at its native TL11. Per "Tech Level and Equipment" (B27) if I introduce this device into a TL10 campaign as an artifact, it would be worth $1,000,000. Meta-Tech, however, gives this TL11 device in a TL10 campaign a cost of only $667,000 (including the +1 CF for +1 TL) -- a 33% discount, purely due to using campaign vs. native tech level to calculate dollar costs. In a TL8 campaign, the same device with the same statistics would cost $1,067,000 by Meta-Tech rules rather than $4,000,000 in Basic.

The example format (p. 36) says, "If item TL differs from campaign TL, note it [after the name]; e.g., “Personal Chronowarp (TL12^).” With the exception of the Mule-Frame Exoskeleton (pp. 39-40), which seems to be a late-TL9 device in a mid-TL9 campaign, all of the dollar costs for the examples are calculated at this differing tech level -- not at some other campaign TL. There doesn't even seem to be any place to note what the campaign tech level and starting wealth is.

Yet if I want my TL5 pulp heroes to retrieve the Healing Sarcophagus (p. 38) from the tomb of King Raptutite and install it in the crypt at Notre Dame, I would have to recalculate its dollar value (even before applying modifiers for uniqueness) to determine their reward.

Am I just reading this all wrong?

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by thrash

I am confused by the Meta-Tech Device Table: why is Dollar Cost based on campaign starting wealth (based in turn on campaign tech level, B28) rather than the starting wealth at the native tech level where the device can be produced? It makes a significant difference in the cost.

For example, a chrysalis machine (UT201-2) costs $500,000 at its native TL11. Per "Tech Level and Equipment" (B27) if I introduce this device into a TL10 campaign as an artifact, it would be worth $1,000,000. Meta-Tech, however, gives this TL11 device in a TL10 campaign a cost of only $667,000 (including the +1 CF for +1 TL) -- a 33% discount, purely due to using campaign vs. native tech level to calculate dollar costs. In a TL8 campaign, the same device with the same statistics would cost $1,067,000 by Meta-Tech rules rather than $4,000,000 in Basic.

The example format (p. 36) says, "If item TL differs from campaign TL, note it [after the name]; e.g., “Personal Chronowarp (TL12^).” With the exception of the Mule-Frame Exoskeleton (pp. 39-40), which seems to be a late-TL9 device in a mid-TL9 campaign, all of the dollar costs for the examples are calculated at this differing tech level -- not at some other campaign TL. There doesn't even seem to be any place to note what the campaign tech level and starting wealth is.

Yet if I want my TL5 pulp heroes to retrieve the Healing Sarcophagus (p. 38) from the tomb of King Raptutite and install it in the crypt at Notre Dame, I would have to recalculate its dollar value (even before applying modifiers for uniqueness) to determine their reward.

Am I just reading this all wrong?

I had some rules on item "generation" costs but removed them. Why? Because the rest of GURPS doesn't do it either. If you want a Peacemaker it costs the same at TL5 as it does at TL8. So basing it on the starting wealth of the campaign kind of normalizes it with the rest of GURPS.