GURPS Meta-Tech

[JulianLW]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I looked at it, but I don't see which of those I would use to get +0.7 for Materials. Nor am I sure how to translate all of the options listed there into power modifier percentages.

Can you write up Materials using the list on page 21 and show how to get the BCM?

The Materials origin has the following (partial) write-up:

Usage: No activation roll is needed – the device “just works.” Rolls for use (block with a shield, hit with a weapon, etc.) and extra effort are still required.
BCM: +0.7 (but see below).
All repairs (pp. B484-485) cost double; major repairs further require 1% of final, total device cost in special materials. Many materials-based devices are Self-Powered (p. 15). Others are powered by materials that cost 0.05% of base cost for their operating duration; this makes BCM +0.4. While materials costs for major repairs and power are modest, the materials are rare and often require adventures to obtain. If they can be bought easily, BCM becomes +0.9 in general, +0.8 if also needed for power.

No activation roll is +1 BCM.

That means there's an additional -0.3 somewhere for a final BCM of +0.7. That accounts for double cost repairs and extra total device cost. If the device is also powered by rare, double-cost materials, that's an additional -0.3, for a final BCM of +0.4. Clearly, -0.2 of this modifier is "rare and often require adventures to obtain." If that's not the case, add 0.2 for a final BCM of +0.9 and +0.8 respectively.

So: No activation skill needed is equal to PM +100%.
Double cost repairs is equal to -10%.
Expensive power charge cost -10%.
Requires adventure for repairs is equal to -20%.
Requires adventure for power charge is equal to -20%.

That's how I figure it.

[Farmer]

Originally Posted by Kromm

And as befits a book on DIY gadgets, there are plenty of knobs and switches to adapt all of this to your campaign. You can keep it simple and pick the TLs and origins that exist there, or you can plunge into building complex abilities (some with new traits useful for characters as well), creating new origins, tweaking item rarity, and even letting PCs design their own meta-tech. Lest it all sound overwhelming, have no fear: There's also an entire appendix with over a dozen worked examples to show you how it's done!

This is one of the things I really like about it. There's crunch available if you want it, but you don't have to have all the crunch. It's like having a choice of peanut butter and mixing it how you like it.

I know there's a "reverse engineering" thread going on, which is cool because it demonstrates some of the cool new stuff and how people can apply it in novel ways. And as Kromm says, there're new traits that can be used for PCs, so you get more than just a system for doing its core function - it expands beyond that.

And then there are already so many options, you don't need to microdetail on how it got put together, you can just use it. Straight forward steps and a flow to follow, and you end up with cool gear!

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by JulianLW

No activation roll is +1 BCM.

That means there's an additional -0.3 somewhere for a final BCM of +0.7. That accounts for double cost repairs and extra total device cost. If the device is also powered by rare, double-cost materials, that's an additional -0.3, for a final BCM of +0.4. Clearly, -0.2 of this modifier is "rare and often require adventures to obtain." If that's not the case, add 0.2 for a final BCM of +0.9 and +0.8 respectively.

So: No activation skill needed is equal to PM +100%.
Double cost repairs is equal to -10%.
Expensive power charge cost -10%.
Requires adventure for repairs is equal to -20%.
Requires adventure for power charge is equal to -20%.

That's how I figure it.

The analysis is helpful. Can you point me at the page numbers where each of those values can be found? Or are there some that aren't explicitly defined in the book, that you're working out by calculation?

[JulianLW]

Originally Posted by whswhs

The analysis is helpful. Can you point me at the page numbers where each of those values can be found? Or are there some that aren't explicitly defined in the book, that you're working out by calculation?

I used my deductive reasoning skillz.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by JulianLW

I used my deductive reasoning skillz.

Okay, I see the item about no activation roll being needed for +1.0.

For the rest, I get slightly different results than you appear to. There are four statements: "repairs cost x2 and need special materials," "special materials for repair are rare," "power needs special materials," and "special materials for power are rare." Call them A, B, C, D. Now, AB costs -.3; A alone costs -.1; therefore B costs -.2. ABCD costs -.6; AC alone costs -.2; therefore BD costs -.4; therefore D costs -.2. And finally, then, C costs -.1.

So I think I differ from your interpretations of A and C: A is "repairs costs x2 AND need special materials," C is "power needs special materials." The use of "expensive" for C doesn't fit the source, which says the cost is modest. But your method of analysis seems to be sound: I get the same numbers you do.

It's curious that Reliable+10 is +50%, but No Activation Roll is +100%.

Thanks for the analysis!

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Scriptorian

Just finished reading through the whole thing. Good stuff.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by Scriptorian

Regarding the Power Corrupts option for Cthulhutech and Enchanted items: I'm presuming it functions like the Corrupting modifier (defaulting to 20% the point cost of the underlying ability in Corruption). This does raise the question of why it can substitute for the -0.4 BCM of the default Fright Check rules, where all other indications are that it should be worth -0.2 BCM.

It would turn the original BCM into the power corrupts BCM, so -0.2 not -0.6 (unless both conditions are met).

Originally Posted by Scriptorian

But my real wonder concerns how often to apply the Corruption (the Corrupting modifier itself doesn't actually say). Intuitively, it seems like the Corruption should replace batteries and hence function at the same intervals, like the Enchanted Item options. But the implication of being able to add the -0.2 BCM Corrupting to Enchanted items on top of the normal battery-replacement options is that it does not itself interact with the battery requirement.

You can do it that way, yes. But baseline they still require some kind of power source - maybe specialized batteries, blood, something.

Originally Posted by Scriptorian

Making this even harder for me to parse is that the normal Enchanted Item options replacing batteries and adding -0.1 BCM seem like an incredibly efficient trade-off compared to the normal +4 CF to waive battery requirements. It strikes me as weird they provide a discount when, if anything, they seem less restrictive than normal battery requirements. Any insight as to the reasoning here would be appreciated; maybe I've missed something.

I'm not exactly picking up what you're putting down here.

So an enchanted object by baseline requires mana, energy to operate, or a powerstone. It has to have one of those. But you can add a requirement for batteries too or the other two. So if your item needs mana, costs 1d-3 ER/FP, batteries, and a powerstone the BCM becomes -0.4. Self-Powered isn't just about batteries - it kills the entire need for outside energies to power the device. That's not a deal at all.

I'll also note that if the GM isn't tracking mana, having enemy with dispelling magic, etc. then none of this is a disadvantage. It's like normal magic or power modifiers, if you don't enforce the downsides then it has no downsides and the PCs should pay more.

Originally Posted by Scriptorian

At the very least, a strict reading suggests 1d-3 Corruption per "use" (at -0.1 BCM) would be legal variant to replaces batteries but that this would independent of the -0.2 (-0.4?) BCM Corrupting modifier (which, presumably, would also apply at the same "use" intervals).

No, I don't think you should sub in corruption like that. We already have rules for Corrupting and that states that it's Point Cost Saved per point. So basically, 1 CP per 5 points of the power.

Originally Posted by Farmer

This is one of the things I really like about it. There's crunch available if you want it, but you don't have to have all the crunch. It's like having a choice of peanut butter and mixing it how you like it.

I know there's a "reverse engineering" thread going on, which is cool because it demonstrates some of the cool new stuff and how people can apply it in novel ways. And as Kromm says, there're new traits that can be used for PCs, so you get more than just a system for doing its core function - it expands beyond that.

And then there are already so many options, you don't need to microdetail on how it got put together, you can just use it. Straight forward steps and a flow to follow, and you end up with cool gear!

Thanks!

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

It would turn the original BCM into the power corrupts BCM, so -0.2 not -0.6 (unless both conditions are met).

Originally Posted by GURPS Meta Tech p18

Optionally, the GM may wish to use Power Corrupts
(GURPS Horror, pp. 146-148) – either in addition to (add -0.2
BCM) or instead of causing Fright Checks.

That reads (to me) that Power Corrupts adds -0.2 if it's in addition, or leaves the price unchanged if it's instead of. If the print version hasn't gone to the printers yet, a simple fix would be to amend the above to "either in addition to (add -0.2 BCM) or instead of (change BCM to -0.2) causing Fright Checks."

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

I'm not exactly picking up what you're putting down here.

So an enchanted object by baseline requires mana, energy to operate, or a powerstone. It has to have one of those. But you can add a requirement for batteries too or the other two. So if your item needs mana, costs 1d-3 ER/FP, batteries, and a powerstone the BCM becomes -0.4. Self-Powered isn't just about batteries - it kills the entire need for outside energies to power the device. That's not a deal at all.

Wild Advantages don't require external power, you need to add those in as Limitations - but Meta Tech Devices by default do require such, and in fact need an expensive Enhancement - Self-Powered - to avoid this requirement. An Advantage with Magic -10% requires Mana and is subject to anti-magic. An Enchanted Item MTD appears to get its -0.1 BCM from Magic -10%, so one would expect it to have the same effects as that while still otherwise functioning as an MTD - it requires Mana, is subject to anti-magic, and requires some other form of external power (batteries, power cells, etc; it would be a good candidate for (Alternate Technology)-Powered, with mana crystals or whatever that the user charges up). But, in addition to not requiring that additional external power, it also makes the Mana requirement markedly more lenient by allowing items to be powered by Powerstones or even the character's personal reserves of Mana, which normally isn't an option (to my knowledge) for Magic -10% - although I really like the concept and may well adopt it for that Limitation.

My apologies for not bringing this up in the playtest - the seed of it occurred to me there, but with so much going on I promptly forgot about it until now.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Varyon

That reads (to me) that Power Corrupts adds -0.2 if it's in addition, or leaves the price unchanged if it's instead of. If the print version hasn't gone to the printers yet, a simple fix would be to amend the above to "either in addition to (add -0.2 BCM) or instead of (change BCM to -0.2) causing Fright Checks."

Ah well. I don't read it like that at all, but then I had to be terse.

Originally Posted by Varyon

Wild Advantages don't require external power, you need to add those in as Limitations - but Meta Tech Devices by default do require such, and in fact need an expensive Enhancement - Self-Powered - to avoid this requirement. An Advantage with Magic -10% requires Mana and is subject to anti-magic. An Enchanted Item MTD appears to get its -0.1 BCM from Magic -10%, so one would expect it to have the same effects as that while still otherwise functioning as an MTD - it requires Mana, is subject to anti-magic, and requires some other form of external power (batteries, power cells, etc; it would be a good candidate for (Alternate Technology)-Powered, with mana crystals or whatever that the user charges up). But, in addition to not requiring that additional external power, it also makes the Mana requirement markedly more lenient by allowing items to be powered by Powerstones or even the character's personal reserves of Mana, which normally isn't an option (to my knowledge) for Magic -10% - although I really like the concept and may well adopt it for that Limitation.

My apologies for not bringing this up in the playtest - the seed of it occurred to me there, but with so much going on I promptly forgot about it until now.

Well, there is no reason why you couldn't do those. Mana-Sensitive is -10% and means it needs ambient energy to function (check), requiring a powerstone is a really lenient form of External Energy Only, and the costs ER/FP is literally just priced as Costs Fatigue, ER only. Adding in batteries to something that doesn't normally require them (and baseline Enchanted objects don't) is worth a -10% since -5% is "As long as it's even a little charged" for batteries. So all of those add up.

Now, Self-Powered...why did it become +4 CF instead of the double cost I originally had it at have two reasons:

1. In GURPS benefits typically cost more than their counterpart drawbacks. Look at Long-Range vs. Short-Range as a good example. That's just how the system (usually works).
2. Self-Powered is really a kind of "cosmic" CF. It lets you get away from a huge part of the system: power requirements. I played with +2 and +3 - but that just didn't feel right. So I upped it to +4 CF. That felt correct to me. So that's what I did.

If self-powered objects are more common in your world just use the Ubiquity rules with each step up a +1 and each step down a -1. So ... impossible is +7 CF, very rare is +6 CF, and so on. You could even use the SSR if you wanted with each step going up a level. So say the base line is +4 (or +2 SM on the table) and each step makes it go up. So +2 steps would be +10 CF. If self-powered is uncommon (the baseline) then making it impossible is three steps or +15 CF. Same counts for going downward.

[Scriptorian]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

Well, there is no reason why you couldn't do those. Mana-Sensitive is -10% and means it needs ambient energy to function (check), requiring a powerstone is a really lenient form of External Energy Only, and the costs ER/FP is literally just priced as Costs Fatigue, ER only. Adding in batteries to something that doesn't normally require them (and baseline Enchanted objects don't) is worth a -10% since -5% is "As long as it's even a little charged" for batteries. So all of those add up.

I'm sort of following you, but the math still doesn't add up for me.

It makes sense that each of Mana Sensitive, Requires Powerstone, and Costs ER add -0.1 BCM. What we're confused about is why any one of those also removes the battery requirement. If Requires Batteries is effectively also a -10% limitation, then there is a -0.1 BCM missing. You emphasized that "baseline Enchanted Objects don't [require batteries]". Are you saying that Enchanted Objects just ignore the baseline assumption that all Metatech requires batteries?

Something else I just noticed: Mana Sensitive effectively has two components: -5% for the actually being sensitive to Mana levels, and -5% for being subject to typical magical countermeasures (Powers pg. 27). This implies that an Enchanted Item being powered by a Powerstone or ER, rather than ambient Mana, is not subject to those countermeasures...

It seems like the break down should have been a starting BCM of 0, where the battery requirement is replaced by a sensitivity to Mana levels and being subject to countermeasures (because it makes sense that all magic items would have the standard limitations Mana Sensitive/Magical). Then adding batteries back, or Powerstone or ER, would each add -0.1 BCM.

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

Thanks!
No, I don't think you should sub in corruption like that. We already have rules for Corrupting and that states that it's Point Cost Saved per point. So basically, 1 CP per 5 points of the power.

I suppose it makes sense to simply not entertain a hypothetical Costs Corruption limitation existing alongside Corrupting...but even accepting that I will still be annoyed because the baseline of the Corruption system is all about substituting Corruption for FP. ��

(Also still annoyed that the limitation doesn't say if/how often to re-apply the Corruption for ongoing abilities. But I guess at least now I have the precedent of battery durations...)

On the off-chance there is still a possibility of errata, I really would clarify that using Corruption instead of Fright Checks for Cthulhutech changes the BCM to -0.2. The fact that it stipulates a cost change if added, but not one if swapped, syntactically implies that swapping doesn't change the BCM.
While we're at it, I would have had it reference the Corrupting limitation itself (pg. 22), which much more directly states the standard of Corruption = 20% point cost, rather than requiring the reader to make the leap that, out of the many suggestions in the main Corruption section, that specific convention is what's intended. As opposed to, say, the suggestions under Using Cursed Artifacts.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

Well, there is no reason why you couldn't do those. Mana-Sensitive is -10% and means it needs ambient energy to function (check), requiring a powerstone is a really lenient form of External Energy Only, and the costs ER/FP is literally just priced as Costs Fatigue, ER only.

If I'm parsing this correctly, this is a case of "one of three" with the three being Mana-Sensitive -10%, Requires Powerstone ~-10%, and Costs 1 ER -10%. I initially thought this was something a "pick one on the fly" situation, so in a no mana zone you could opt to attach a powerstone or burn some personal mana, but rereading it (and reading your explanation) it seems more likely that each item has a specific requirement that is immutable - one that requires ambient mana simply won't work in an NMZ, one that requires a Powerstone won't function without it, even in a very high mana zone, and one that requires ER calls for the character to burn ER (or not - half the time it costs 0 ER) regardless of the local mana. Of those, only Requires Powerstone seems appropriate to not call for a battery - you're getting a -0.1 BCM for requiring a rarer and more expensive "battery," while the others seem like they'd be on top of needing a battery.

I think the way I'd prefer to run it, while it's certainly counter to the book, is that an enchanted item by default requires either a Mana Battery (using the guidelines from (Alternate Technology)-Powered - which are awesome by the way) or a Powerstone, and you can freely swap out which you're using. One that is using a Mana Battery also requires ambient mana to function; in the absence of ambient mana, the character can instead burn 1d-3 magical ER (only) to power it (technically this means someone can get lucky and power it without losing any ER, but as they'd be required to invest in ER to be able to use the item in this mode, while normally MTD's don't have an enabling Advantage, I think that's fair). I'm not demanding others should do it this way, or even saying that's the way it should have been written (I think you've got good reasons for handling it this way, they just don't jive well with me), but if Enchanted Item's "Replace the battery requirement with needing mana, -0.1 BCM" bugs people like it does me, the above may be an alternative option.