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Old 06-09-2011, 12:41 AM   #1
b-dog
 
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Default DF Beast Summoning and Find Familiar with GURPS

I have DF Allies and I think it is a good book but it really does not capture the spirit of old school dungeon delving for me. I am trying to fix this so that is why I am asking for help on the forums.

First I want to use a spell like Beast Summoning to summon a beast for the Druid instead of just having the Druid pay points at the beginning of the game. So the problem I am having is how much energy should it cost to summon the beast? I would imagine that the point value of the beast summoned should be related to the energy cost for the spell sort of like how the Demon Summoning spell. So what would be a good point cost to cast such a spell? And how long could it continue serving the Druid? Maybe there would be a way to extend the spell by using more energy? And if the Druid decided he/she wanted the beast to be an Ally then how would you go about doing that? Using a Beast Link spell? Once the spell is successful then maybe the Druid can pay points to have the beast as an Ally? I want the Druid to find his Allies during play if possible as opposed to just paying for the Ally at the beginning of the game.

Second is the Find Familiar spell. I want to have it like old school where the familiar that showed up was random. Should I just make up some tables to roll against? Some familiars are more useful than others and it adds to the game to not have the wizard know the whole story of the familiar. Sometimes a wizard will get an imp instead of a useful familiar and this can make the game more interesting to me.

Finally I want to ask if there is a some way that if there is a critical success on summoning a beast or familiar if maybe some character points could be gained to put towards purchasing the beast or familiar as an Ally. Maybe the Druid or wizard cast the spell so successfully that the summoned beast or familiar just serves the Druid or wizard willingly? This means that the characters points are just granted to the Druid or wizard and from then on the beast or familiar is an Ally and the point total of the druid or wizard is just increased. What do you think about something like this? I am just curious about this so I would appreciate anny help or ideas, thank.
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Old 06-09-2011, 01:03 AM   #2
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Default Re: DF Beast Summoning and Find Familiar with GURPS

If you are the GM, you can give an ally in lieu of or in addition to normal cp rewards.

IDHMBWM, if there isn't a Beast Summoning spell, but is a Demon Summoning spell, I would just use that spell and make it work for beasts instead.

If the Druid wants an ally, as a GM I would figure out what was suitable for the setting, ask the PC to do that, and give him the ally when he paid the cp. No Skill/Spell required.

IDHMBWM, but the GM designs all allies. The rules on Allies state how much input the player has. If you want to randomize it, you'd need to let the player know that from the beginning and if he still wants a familiar you can give him whatever familiar you want at that point cost. Whether you have a random table or not.
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Old 06-09-2011, 08:17 AM   #3
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Default Re: DF Beast Summoning and Find Familiar with GURPS

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Originally Posted by b-dog View Post
First I want to use a spell like Beast Summoning to summon a beast for the Druid instead of just having the Druid pay points at the beginning of the game. So the problem I am having is how much energy should it cost to summon the beast?
There are two cannonical spells similar to what you're thinking of already in GURPS Magic.

Much cheaper of the two is Beast Summoning, page 30. This spell "calls" an animal, but you have to wait for it to arrive however it normally travels. So giant eagles are going to show up pdq but a tortoise is going to take a very long time. These are REAL animals, and a druid with Sense of Duty: Nature is going to want to keep them safe, not send them into battle. This is more for rescues, or getting mounts for fast travel, or local guides, or that sort of thing.

More like the D&D model is Create Animal, page 98 - the price is based entirely on size modifier. Create Animal has the benefit of making a "fake" animal which won't make a Druid with Sense of Duty: Nature feel bad about throwing into a fight or using to set off traps or whatever.
Create Mount is like Create Animal, but specialized for riding.

Beast Summoning has a maintenance cost, but that is for how long the "Call" is sustained - once the animal shows up you have to find some way to get it to help you - via Control Mammal or via Animal Empathy/Speak with Animals/etc.


Create Animal and Create Mount are maintained to sustain the existence of the creation.
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Old 06-10-2011, 03:20 AM   #4
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Default Re: DF Beast Summoning and Find Familiar with GURPS

You pay points for allies so that they are dependable.

I think the Find Familiar spell and a random familiar is not an abstraction that needs to be emulated. This is GURPS, where the player is encouraged/allowed to make the character that they want. That's the whole point of a point buy system.

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and it adds to the game to not have the wizard know the whole story of the familiar.
Allies are NPCs, which means that they are stated out by the GM, not by the player.
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Old 06-10-2011, 08:44 AM   #5
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Default Re: DF Beast Summoning and Find Familiar with GURPS

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Originally Posted by fschiff View Post

You pay points for allies so that they are dependable.

I think the Find Familiar spell and a random familiar is not an abstraction that needs to be emulated.
Both of the above points are quite valid. The idea of Allies that are random and perhaps not what you wanted is broken. Non-Ally companions could work that way, but Allies cost points because they are NPCs that the player can define in broad strokes (even if the GM does the actual design work) and upon which the PC can rely completely. Take that away and you have a fancy "hireling" that happens to be summoned, not paid. That isn't worth points.

Find Familiar was hated even at the time for being a spell that you cast once and then ignored forever . . . a real waste of time and resources, to be honest. I'd never put that kind of thing into a GURPS book. I really like the Allies approach: "Any spellcaster who does not already have a familiar (or whose familiar has died) may summon one – the ritual to do so is known to bards, clerics, druids, and wizards alike. It is not a separate skill and requires no roll." That is, there is a spell, but you don't pay points for it; it's color. Of course, the points you pay for your familiar could be seen as an investment in a kind of spell.
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Old 06-10-2011, 12:51 PM   #6
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Default Re: DF Beast Summoning and Find Familiar with GURPS

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Find Familiar was hated even at the time for being a spell that you cast once and then ignored forever . . . a real waste of time and resources, to be honest. I'd never put that kind of thing into a GURPS book. I really like the Allies approach: "Any spellcaster who does not already have a familiar (or whose familiar has died) may summon one – the ritual to do so is known to bards, clerics, druids, and wizards alike. It is not a separate skill and requires no roll." That is, there is a spell, but you don't pay points for it; it's color. Of course, the points you pay for your familiar could be seen as an investment in a kind of spell.
What about the ritual roll for gaining a familiar? How would you randomize it so that on a low success roll you get a weaker familiar or maybe on that is different than what you wanted? Also what about a critical success roll on the ritual? Would you just give the points to the spell-caster? Say a wizard wants an imp familiar and he makes an awesome roll and maybe the wizard just gains the familiar along with the points? Maybe the wizard was a 250 pt character but he makes an awesome roll and gains an imp familiar and is now a 280 pt character and does not have to pay points, he just gains them. Would you think there could be some super lucky randomness that would be fair with GURPS? I am curious about putting some random points gains -or losses-into using magic, would this work with GURPS? Maybe a wizard using a find familiar spell could also get a familiar that would not help much if he had a bad roll or If he critically fails then maybe the familiar is harmful to the wizard? This kind of randomness really makes DF fun to me. Magic should be very fickle as it seems to be part of chaos in this kind of fantasy.
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Old 06-10-2011, 01:34 PM   #7
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Default Re: DF Beast Summoning and Find Familiar with GURPS

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How would you randomize it so that on a low success roll you get a weaker familiar or maybe on that is different than what you wanted?
I wouldn't, not in GURPS. GURPS is a point-build game; you should no more roll dice for familiars than you should to determine ST, DX, IQ, and HT. Like attributes, a familiar is part of the character! The game's contract is that you get to see the goods before you pay the points, and you get goods worth the points, not some random amount. I think you're confusing the game mechanics of older games with their view of fantasy; AD&D had random familiars because it had random everything, not because it had a coherent view of fantasy wherein familiars were inherently chaotic.

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This kind of randomness really makes DF fun to me.
Then with respect, you might want to play a non-point-build game. Point-build games appeared because so many people found randomness in character creation to be no fun at all.

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Magic should be very fickle as it seems to be part of chaos in this kind of fantasy.
In old-school games and GURPS alike, magic quite clearly isn't chaotic at all. It manifests as well-known, rote-learned spells with highly predictable results, developed and perfected through scientific study, and often commoditized and built into items as a de facto replacement for technology. "Magic is chaotic" was one element of Howard and Moorcock stories that just about all FRPGs pointedly rejected in favor of a studied, predictable take on spellcasting that let magic stand in for science and technology.

In particular, the precise damage-per-second, spells-I'll-get-on-leveling-up optimization seen in online games like WoW isn't new at all. I remember playing AD&D in 1979 and people talking about "How many Cure Lights can you cast per dungeon-day?", "What's the best damage/spell level option with save and no-save?", and "I'm prioritizing Fireball at level 5." Spells were quantified, predictable, and treated like resources. So were magic items . . . people bought, sold, and traded items all the time, and there would've been a rebellion if a DM had said somebody's +2 sword was actually +1, because all the encounter balances involved having the right number of +N weapons to fight creatures immune to lesser weapons.
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Old 06-10-2011, 07:19 PM   #8
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Default Re: DF Beast Summoning and Find Familiar with GURPS

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
I wouldn't, not in GURPS. GURPS is a point-build game; you should no more roll dice for familiars than you should to determine ST, DX, IQ, and HT. Like attributes, a familiar is part of the character! The game's contract is that you get to see the goods before you pay the points, and you get goods worth the points, not some random amount. I think you're confusing the game mechanics of older games with their view of fantasy; AD&D had random familiars because it had random everything, not because it had a coherent view of fantasy wherein familiars were inherently chaotic.

Then with respect, you might want to play a non-point-build game. Point-build games appeared because so many people found randomness in character creation to be no fun at all.

In old-school games and GURPS alike, magic quite clearly isn't chaotic at all. It manifests as well-known, rote-learned spells with highly predictable results, developed and perfected through scientific study, and often commoditized and built into items as a de facto replacement for technology. "Magic is chaotic" was one element of Howard and Moorcock stories that just about all FRPGs pointedly rejected in favor of a studied, predictable take on spellcasting that let magic stand in for science and technology.

In particular, the precise damage-per-second, spells-I'll-get-on-leveling-up optimization seen in online games like WoW isn't new at all. I remember playing AD&D in 1979 and people talking about "How many Cure Lights can you cast per dungeon-day?", "What's the best damage/spell level option with save and no-save?", and "I'm prioritizing Fireball at level 5." Spells were quantified, predictable, and treated like resources. So were magic items . . . people bought, sold, and traded items all the time, and there would've been a rebellion if a DM had said somebody's +2 sword was actually +1, because all the encounter balances involved having the right number of +N weapons to fight creatures immune to lesser weapons.
Note you this all the above is not incapable the the "Secret Advantage" where you buy the basics and leave the rest up to the DM to surprise you.

That Feline Familiar you bought unknown to you can walk though walls. or that +2 Sword also and addition +2 Bane to demons.
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Old 06-10-2011, 10:46 PM   #9
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Default Re: DF Beast Summoning and Find Familiar with GURPS

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Note you this all the above is not incapable the the "Secret Advantage" where you buy the basics and leave the rest up to the DM to surprise you.

That Feline Familiar you bought unknown to you can walk though walls. or that +2 Sword also and addition +2 Bane to demons.
Sure, but if you pay for a 62-point Ally, you're still expecting a 62-point Ally and that's what you should get.

Now, if the GM were to (for example) go through DF5 and beef all of the familiars up to 125 points, and say, "The extra 63 points are for unknown things. I'll be assigning them via a random table once you buy the Ally, but you'll have to figure out what it can do," that'd be fine. What isn't fair is making two players both pay the same cost for an Ally, but have one Ally turn out to be a 24-point toad and the other turn out to be a 112-point hawk.
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Old 06-10-2011, 11:17 PM   #10
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Default Re: DF Beast Summoning and Find Familiar with GURPS

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Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
Sure, but if you pay for a 62-point Ally, you're still expecting a 62-point Ally and that's what you should get.

Now, if the GM were to (for example) go through DF5 and beef all of the familiars up to 125 points, and say, "The extra 63 points are for unknown things. I'll be assigning them via a random table once you buy the Ally, but you'll have to figure out what it can do," that'd be fine. What isn't fair is making two players both pay the same cost for an Ally, but have one Ally turn out to be a 24-point toad and the other turn out to be a 112-point hawk.
Total Agreement 8)
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