Our group doesn't play by RAW and it's hard for me.

[Wade]

My group has been playing Gurps since the 80s. We switched to 4th edition on release, but we're just not doing things correctly. A lot of rules we never learned. We get a lot of things mixed up with 3rd edition. If I ever say anything to try to correct something (I'm a player), the GM and his wife give me crap for it stating, "1st rule of Gurps is that the GM can overrule anything." But the truth of it is, the GM doesn't know the rules and doesn't like feeling undermined.

From my perspective, I can't properly create a character or plan anything in game because I don't know how he's going to decide ruling it at any given time.

I want to keep playing with them because they're my best friends and have been for my entire life, but I just don't know how to keep playing like this. It's getting frustrating.

I understand some rules get pretty confusing and I don't want to sit at the table looking through books. But they're not even willing to write the issue down and then look it up later for proper rules, and they certainly won't take my word for it...they're too stubborn.

I either need to figure out a way to get them to understand and play by the RAW, or I need to figure out a way to create my characters and state my actions based on the crude-winged rules we play by and not care about it.

Is there any advice you guys can give me?

[Varyon]

Option 1, Dialogue: Have a one-on-one discussion with the GM. Let him know, in no uncertain terms, that your inability to predict what the rules are going to be each time you play is preventing you from having fun. In your situation, I might be inclined to basically say "Look, just supply me with all the houserules you intend to use, and stick with the RAW besides. If you keep just changing the rules up whenever it suits you, I'm not going to play in your campaigns anymore, because they simply aren't fun for me."

Option 2, Vetting: When you create your character, bring said character to the GM, and state the kinds of things you intend for the character to be able to do. Get confirmation that such things will work the way you expect them to work, so you don't show up with what you think is a great ability but the GM houserules into obsolescence. If the GM states your character won't work the way you want it to, rework the character until it does.

Option 3, "I'm the Captain now": Run a game for your friends with you as GM. Try to be the kind of GM you'd rather your friend was, maybe it'll rub off... or maybe you'll find it to be just as fun (possibly even more fun) than participating as a player.

Option 4, Embrace Chaos: Don't bother coming up with careful plans based on official rules. Play a dumb fighter who just hits things until they stop moving. Exploit the hell out of any weird rulings the GM makes. Don't become attached to your character - just kill him/her off if things don't work the way you planned then make a new one.

Option 5, "A strange game...": Leave the group. A bad game is honestly worse than no game. You can still do non-GURPS stuff with these friends, and maybe try to find a new group for GURPS stuff. Not an ideal situation, certainly, but it's always an option.


The above list is, of course, not exhaustive.

[zoncxs]

I agree with the above and do not see any other options to add, I declare the list exhausted.

I will note:

I want to keep playing with them because they're my best friends and have been for my entire life, but I just don't know how to keep playing like this. It's getting frustrating.

This is you shackling yourself to the notion that you cannot change anything because of some embarrassment that might come from it. If they are truly your best friends, then this issue should not have gotten as far as you needing to post.

If they are truly your best friends, then you should all be equal in each others eyes and as such they should be willing to listen and do what you say (In this case, read the DAM RULES).

If you voicing your opinion on how they are running a game, the fact that they are running it badly and you point it out, makes them lash out with the "1st rule of Gurps is that the GM can overrule anything", then its time for you to down grade them from "Best Friends" to just "friends", because it does not sound like YOU are THEIRS best friend.

And when you start treating as such, allowing you to focus on yourself more too, they will either wake up and realize they have been ****** Best friends, or you will wake up and see the lies.

[RGTraynor]

Speaking as someone who GMs with a fair bit of houserules (there are rules I still use from BSII, never mind BSIII), I am firmly in the Option #1 camp. Rules confusion in this line shouldn't rebound to the detriment of unsuspecting players. (The other options work perfectly well too.)

With that, I also have a couple documents detailing -- page by page -- every houserule I use. They are all in my players' hands, I have PDFs of them on my campaign's Io site, and they're as responsible for knowing them as they are the RAW corebooks. If your GM hasn't prepared such a document, he should. You have the right to know what rules are in play.

With that being said, slow your roll, hoss, because your contempt for your "best friends" is showing a mile wide. Unless your GM specified from the start that he was playing RAW and nothing but, no, you do not get to claim that he's Playing Incorrectly -- the "rules" were written by human beings, not sent down from Mt. Austin on stone tablets. He has every right to use whatever houserules suit him, he is under no compunction to change those rules to your satisfaction, and the only vote you have in the matter is to decide whether you can stand playing in a non-RAW campaign.

(Never mind "I can't properly create a character or plan anything in game" ... ? That's a fair bit of hyperbole. Nothing? What, is he switching to D&D 3.5 mid-game? I am on your side if he's just refusing to set his houserules down in writing -- and doubly so if his houseruling contradicts himself from session to session, but.)

[thalcos]

I'm curious to know more context of not using RAW.

Like to me, there's a big difference between things that tend to break the game -- "we don't allow active defenses, too many rolls" vs. things that are more subtle -- "we don't calculate my ST into falling damage, the GM just told me to take 1d damage when I fell of that balcony."

As a GM, I appreciate it when players know the rules better than me but can actually suggest improvements on the fly. So when I say, "eh, take 1d damage from that fall and a player is like, actually, it should be 1d-2 because the elf is only ST 9" then I'm like "great! 1d-2!"

[Refplace]

I think in GURPS it is safe to say most GMs do not play by all the rules. That said consistency is important.
One of the games I play in the GM uses a lot of house rules and it can be very frustrating remembering them all. Fortunately he writes up a house doc covering most of the changes, with specilized documents for extensive changes such as revising the magic system. That said its still hard to remember all the changes, sometimes a change is not where I expect to find it when referencing, sometimes I interpert it incorrectly, and sometimes its not documented or is changed during the campaign. Some older rules have been changed and the reference documents not updated,
That is all very frustrating.

However, the GM makes a clear effort to be consistent and if changes things or references something I didn't see will work with me. It is not always easy, especially if there is a change after the fact, but he has earned my trust and respect in how much effort he puts into trying to be consistent but willing to adapt and communicate well. If you do not have that its time to walk away.

[KarlKost]

When I was 10 years old, I played RPG for the first time; a marvellous experience, and I had a ton of fun. Rogues and warriors were fine, but the mage was... A mess. Too complicated.

And nobody really knew the rules of magic. And our Mage player cloned a Titan. As a lvl 1 Mage.

So, I said "give me that book". And over the next 30 years, I have been the GM most of the time.

But I more than welcome anyone that wishes to GM, and I always try to help my friends when they do it.

So, go on and ask your friends to let you GM for a while. And get ready for it. When doing it, introduce the RAW for them. It might be the best alternative for you.

Also, what kind of GM is this that supposedly is your "friend" but acts as a dictator? I never try to impose my will or exert authority simply by being the GM; I believe GMing is a role that requires some good diplomacy skill, if your GM is instead breeding frustation instead of understanding, he's not doing a good job about it.

Other than that, all the options that Varyon laid out are spot on, so there's nothing more to add.

PS: oh, the girlfriend... the "co pilot" GM girlfriend, that one is always... problematic hehehe

[RGTraynor]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

PS: oh, the girlfriend... the "co pilot" GM girlfriend, that one is always... problematic hehehe

Really? My wife's been in my gaming groups for the last nineteen years. She takes copious notes of sessions, so I lean on her pretty heavily to remind me of things I've forgotten. What is there that's "always problematic" about the GM's SO being at the table?

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

Really? My wife's been in my gaming groups for the last nineteen years. She takes copious notes of sessions, so I lean on her pretty heavily to remind me of things I've forgotten. What is there that's "always problematic" about the GM's SO being at the table?

'Always' is probably an exaggeration, but the stereotype of the GM's SO is that she/he/they tend to not know the game well, and get overly indulged by the GM in ways that annoy the other players. A SO who knows the game and is actually helpful is a different situation, and possibly an unusual one. Personally, I don't recall ever gaming with a GM who had a significant other at the time (which doesn't mean that I didn't, but it's been long enough that I could have forgotten), though some of the other players have.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Option 1, Dialogue: Have a one-on-one discussion with the GM. Let him know, in no uncertain terms, that your inability to predict what the rules are going to be each time you play is preventing you from having fun. In your situation, I might be inclined to basically say "Look, just supply me with all the houserules you intend to use, and stick with the RAW besides. If you keep just changing the rules up whenever it suits you, I'm not going to play in your campaigns anymore, because they simply aren't fun for me."

I think this could be done in a less confrontational/ultimatumly way.

Option 2, Vetting: When you create your character, bring said character to the GM, and state the kinds of things you intend for the character to be able to do. Get confirmation that such things will work the way you expect them to work, so you don't show up with what you think is a great ability but the GM houserules into obsolescence. If the GM states your character won't work the way you want it to, rework the character until it does.

Good advice for any campaign.