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Old 11-16-2013, 06:23 PM   #21
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Default Re: GURPS Thaumatology: Chinese Elemental Powers

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
I figured that is how its supposed to work but it still seems to me it could be construed the other way and should be edited for clarity.
Because I personally don't see this potential for confusion, I wouldn't be able to make this edit. Can you suggest a phrasing that you think makes this clearer without changing the actual rule in any way?
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Old 11-16-2013, 06:28 PM   #22
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Default Re: GURPS Thaumatology: Chinese Elemental Powers

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Originally Posted by PK View Post
Because I personally don't see this potential for confusion, I wouldn't be able to make this edit. Can you suggest a phrasing that you think makes this clearer without changing the actual rule in any way?
OK.
Roll against the lower of modified Focus or unmodified Meditation skill; that
is, Focus can remove penalties for extra effort, but cannot give a net bonus over Meditation. (You are not limited by your Will score.)
Change to

Roll against the lower of modified Focus or Meditation skill; that is, Focus can remove penalties for extra effort, but cannot give a net bonus over Meditation. (You are not limited by your Will score.)

I think just removing the Unmodified here and in the example clear it up.
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Old 11-16-2013, 06:32 PM   #23
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Default Re: GURPS Thaumatology: Chinese Elemental Powers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
OK.
Roll against the lower of modified Focus or unmodified Meditation skill; that
is, Focus can remove penalties for extra effort, but cannot give a net bonus over Meditation. (You are not limited by your Will score.)
Change to

Roll against the lower of modified Focus or Meditation skill; that is, Focus can remove penalties for extra effort, but cannot give a net bonus over Meditation. (You are not limited by your Will score.)

I think just removing the Unmodified here and in the example clear it up.
Removing the word "unmodified" from before Meditation lets the rules-lawyers argue that they can roll against a modified Meditation skill level, though.

The unchanged wording seems clearer than your proposed change, at least to me.
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Old 11-16-2013, 06:35 PM   #24
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Default Re: GURPS Thaumatology: Chinese Elemental Powers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
OK.
Roll against the lower of modified Focus or unmodified Meditation skill; that
is, Focus can remove penalties for extra effort, but cannot give a net bonus over Meditation. (You are not limited by your Will score.)
Change to

Roll against the lower of modified Focus or Meditation skill; that is, Focus can remove penalties for extra effort, but cannot give a net bonus over Meditation. (You are not limited by your Will score.)

I think just removing the Unmodified here and in the example clear it up.
That would change the rule in a way that made Focus useless. You should roll against the lower of "modified Focus" or "unmodified Meditation." Your change would imply that, for an extra effort of -4, you'd roll against the lower of Focus-4 or Meditation-4, which means you'd always roll against Meditation-4, rendering Focus worthless.
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Old 11-16-2013, 06:55 PM   #25
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Default Re: GURPS Thaumatology: Chinese Elemental Powers

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Originally Posted by PK View Post
That would change the rule in a way that made Focus useless. You should roll against the lower of "modified Focus" or "unmodified Meditation." Your change would imply that, for an extra effort of -4, you'd roll against the lower of Focus-4 or Meditation-4, which means you'd always roll against Meditation-4, rendering Focus worthless.
I see the disconnect but the fix is more complicated then.
Extra Effort is a penalty to Meditation but you can offset the penalty with the Focus technique. Seems like it would take a rewrite of the whole paragraph and might not be worth it just to deal with rules lawyers or munchkins.


Ok lets try again...


Focus can not have a higher effective skill then Meditation or Will after the penalties from Extra Effort are applied and it only counters extra effort penalties.
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Old 11-16-2013, 07:10 PM   #26
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Default Re: GURPS Thaumatology: Chinese Elemental Powers

Quote:
Originally Posted by robkelk View Post
The unchanged wording seems clearer than your proposed change, at least to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
Seems like it would take a rewrite of the whole paragraph and might not be worth it just to deal with rules lawyers or munchkins.
I'm inclined to agree. I think it's best to wait and see if this seems to be an issue that comes up frequently. After all, it's not an errata now -- as written, it works exactly as it's supposed to -- so an "edit for better clarity" would have to (A) be proven necessary and (B) be unequivocally clearer than the original phrasing.
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Old 11-16-2013, 09:30 PM   #27
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Default Re: GURPS Thaumatology: Chinese Elemental Powers

Why doesn't Focus default to Meditation -4? Isn't that the usual form for penalty-canceling techniques?
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Old 11-16-2013, 09:32 PM   #28
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Default Re: GURPS Thaumatology: Chinese Elemental Powers

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Why doesn't Focus default to Meditation -4? Isn't that the usual form for penalty-canceling techniques?
No, because there is no flat -4 penalty. The penalty for extra effort is "whatever you want it to be." So Focus works similarly to several the techniques from Gun Fu and Tactical Shooting -- you raise it above skill whatever arbitrary amount you want, but it only acts to cancel the variable penalties.
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Old 11-16-2013, 10:17 PM   #29
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Default Re: GURPS Thaumatology: Chinese Elemental Powers

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Originally Posted by PK View Post
No, because there is no flat -4 penalty. The penalty for extra effort is "whatever you want it to be." So Focus works similarly to several the techniques from Gun Fu and Tactical Shooting -- you raise it above skill whatever arbitrary amount you want, but it only acts to cancel the variable penalties.
It's kind of an arcane notation, and it took me a while to figure it out. But it's the standard notation for this sort of thing in GURPS now. I can't think of a different way to express it that wouldn't be more confusing and harder to explain.

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Old 11-16-2013, 11:09 PM   #30
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Default Re: GURPS Thaumatology: Chinese Elemental Powers

I have a few on my list before I get to this one... I get the impression it's going to be one of the "couple of new concepts but 85% worked examples" books, which will keep it somewhat lower on my wishlist... But there do seem to be at least a few tidbits to motivate me...
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