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Old 08-11-2022, 12:22 PM   #1
mlangsdorf
 
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Default Berserkers, posture changes, ranged attacks, and close combat

These issues came up in my game recently:

The team's berserker was lying prone with a laser pistol in hand when he went berserk.
He had opponents within 5 yards. Based on the text, he's required to engage in hand to hand combat (opponents aren't beyond 20 yards) and must take Move or Move and Attack maneuvers.

I ruled he could get to his feet (he did an Acrobatic Stand) but I'm not sure what the rules require. Also, I'm pretty sure he can't shoot his foes, he has to run at them and hit them in hand to hand.

While he was advanced, another person attempted to slam him but missed, ending up in the berserker's hex. Berserkers must use the All-Out Attack maneuver to make an attack against the closest enemy, and AoA only allows forward movement.

Was I right to rule that the berserker had to stay in close-combat? He'd fast-draw a cutlass at this point and was taking penalties for using a long weapon in close combat, but Berserkers apparently don't fall back to tactically superior ground.

I'm mostly curious about the ranged attack, but I wanted to know what the community thought about berserkers being stuck in close-combat as soon as anyone enters their hex.
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Old 08-11-2022, 02:16 PM   #2
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Default Re: Berserkers, posture changes, ranged attacks, and close combat

RAW, I believe the Berserk character would have been required to crawl toward the nearest foe over the course of several rounds, then engage in melee once the foe had been reached. Personally, I have no objection to the character first standing up - indeed, I'd probably allow for an All Out Change Posture, letting the character go from prone to kneeling to standing in one go (or if a single Change Posture would be sufficient - as for an Acrobatic Stand or going from kneeling to standing - let the character stand up and move up to 1/2 Move). If the character was able to reach a foe and attack them in melee with an All Out Attack, I'd require the character to do so; if no foes are close enough, I'd instead allow them to charge at the nearest foe with an All Out Attack, firing their weapon as they go. I wouldn't require a Berserk character to stay too close to use their melee weapon - I'd allow an All Out Attack to involve a Step back (the "only forward movement" bit I'd restrict to if a character were using the 1/2 Move granted by the maneuver), but I believe the RAW would indeed require the character to stay in close combat (with a cutlass, this would probably mean pommel strikes).
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Old 08-11-2022, 03:21 PM   #3
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Default Re: Berserkers, posture changes, ranged attacks, and close combat

I agree that the strict, rules as written interpretation of berserk doesn't allow change posture, but it seems more in keeping with the spirit to allow it, if it would get the berserk character to his enemies faster than crawling. Especially if the character is capable of making an acrobatic stand.

It might not be RAW, but I also don't see any problem with a berserk character using an All Out Attack or Move and Attack to shoot a pistol while closing with an enemy. If you want to be legalistic about it, the paragraph says that "if no foe is within range, you must use a Move maneuver" but it also says, "if you can Move and Attack... you will." Having a pistol in hand means the foe is technically 'in range', and it is possible to make a Move and Attack to close while firing.

As for All Out Attack only allowing forward motion, and not wanting a berserk character to have the presence of mind to step backwards to be able to use their melee weapon more effectively, one solution that is compatible with RAW might be an All Out Attack (Double) with a shove as the first attack.
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Old 08-11-2022, 03:34 PM   #4
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Default Re: Berserkers, posture changes, ranged attacks, and close combat

I didn't think to suggest a push followed by a strike, but that does seem legitimate. But that's also the berserker's player's problem. RAW, which makes sense to me, is that he can't move away from the close combat.
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Old 08-11-2022, 03:36 PM   #5
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Default Re: Berserkers, posture changes, ranged attacks, and close combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
These issues came up in my game recently:

The team's berserker was lying prone with a laser pistol in hand when he went berserk.
He had opponents within 5 yards. Based on the text, he's required to engage in hand to hand combat (opponents aren't beyond 20 yards) and must take Move or Move and Attack maneuvers.

I ruled he could get to his feet (he did an Acrobatic Stand) but I'm not sure what the rules require. Also, I'm pretty sure he can't shoot his foes, he has to run at them and hit them in hand to hand.

While he was advanced, another person attempted to slam him but missed, ending up in the berserker's hex. Berserkers must use the All-Out Attack maneuver to make an attack against the closest enemy, and AoA only allows forward movement.

Was I right to rule that the berserker had to stay in close-combat? He'd fast-draw a cutlass at this point and was taking penalties for using a long weapon in close combat, but Berserkers apparently don't fall back to tactically superior ground.

I'm mostly curious about the ranged attack, but I wanted to know what the community thought about berserkers being stuck in close-combat as soon as anyone enters their hex.
This is a case well-suited to being the GM's call, but I believe your call was perhaps too rigid. The first two specific rules didn't apply as the berserk character had neither a hand weapon nor an opponent no closer than 20 yards.

The intended effect of the rules appears to be that the berserk character ceases to behave in a deliberative fashion and gives himself over to mindless aggressive violence with reckless disregard for his own safety or even continued survival.

IIRC, Erle Stanley Garner once described why domestic quarrels where the wife had a handgun so often seemed to end with her husband dead. "They don't aim, they don't raise the gun, they just tuck their arm into their side, point the gun like it was their finger and proceed to shoot him to doll rags." He wasn't a policeman but he was a lawyer before he became a writer in the 1920s, so he likely picked that idea up from some of his clients or from law enforcement.

Disclaimer: I've never had a berserker attempt to do me grievous bodily harm*, so take this with an appropriate grain of salt.

It would seem well-within the realm of possibility for your berserker to have opened up on the nearest enemy with his laser pistol while still prone, not aiming, but proceeding to shot that opponent to doll rags. His priority will be attempting to do harm to his enemies. If he can't rise "mindlessly" while continuing to fire, similar to the rule for reloading a firearm while berserk, he won't attempt to until either the weapon's power cell is fully discharged (all of them, if he can reload power cells "mindlessly") or there are no targets remaining in view. He'll probably drop the pistol to get up if it is empty, but might rise more slowly if it has shots remaining. His firing will be All-Out Attacks where he is attempting to discharge as many shots as possible. Once he's on the move, he'll probably retain the pistol even once it's empty. Much like Hit Girl in Kickass, the only use he'll put the empty pistol to will be as a rock, either to throw at an opponent he's closing with, or as something to hit his opponent with, as he "pistol whips" his opponent into oblivion.

It may not be RAW, but it seems to be both a reasonable possibility and consistent with the intent of the rules.

* It seems unlikely that that particular qualification constitutes a large pool of people on the forum.
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Old 08-11-2022, 03:52 PM   #6
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Default Re: Berserkers, posture changes, ranged attacks, and close combat

Berserker goes all the way back to 1st ed playtest. I have no idea how much attention it has gotten in the various edition modifications and updates.

IMHO not sure it 'integrates' very well post TL 5-6.
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Old 08-12-2022, 02:30 PM   #7
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Default Re: Berserkers, posture changes, ranged attacks, and close combat

It's not RAW, but I've seen house rules for Berserk gunmen which allow them to AoA with their weapon until it's empty. They can then roll to see if they can immediately ready another ready ranged weapon and use it until its out of ammo. Only once they're out of ranged weapons which they can use on an "instinctive" level do they charge.

Again, not RAW, but it seems entirely appropriate for a Berserk character to stand up and charge to close to melee/unarmed combat range.
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Old 08-12-2022, 03:16 PM   #8
Not
 
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Default Re: Berserkers, posture changes, ranged attacks, and close combat

I believe if prone, a berserk character must stand. Can't recall if that's GURPS or DFRPG rules or both.
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Old 08-12-2022, 03:35 PM   #9
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Default Re: Berserkers, posture changes, ranged attacks, and close combat

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Originally Posted by Not View Post
I believe if prone, a berserk character must stand. Can't recall if that's GURPS or DFRPG rules or both.
This appears to be a rule from DFRPG, but it's very much in the spirit of the thing. Along with requiring unarmed characters to either acquire a weapon or attack unarmed—which doesn't seem to be covered by the letter of Berserk, but is required for Berserk zombies to make any sense.
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Old 08-12-2022, 03:39 PM   #10
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: Berserkers, posture changes, ranged attacks, and close combat

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
It's not RAW, but I've seen house rules for Berserk gunmen which allow them to AoA with their weapon until it's empty. They can then roll to see if they can immediately ready another ready ranged weapon and use it until its out of ammo. Only once they're out of ranged weapons which they can use on an "instinctive" level do they charge.
This seems almost RAW to me. In a sense it amounts to a ruling that "reload" includes "New York reloads".
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