Variant Quintessence, requesting feedback

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by johndallman

So being strong and having high QN makes you absolutely deadly in ST-based combat. How does QN affect (a) muscle-powered ranged weapons and (b) firearms? How about examples of how QP is used?

For lawful QN it would be fine. The Forbidden QN type would just translate most of the extra QN into damaging the structural integrity of your weapon. Though Outsiders and Espers can learn to infuse own power into stuff to get around this, or find astral weapons (in the astral world, predictably), so it isn't much of a limitation if the Outsider/Esper is at least a bit determined to sort it out.

I do kind of see supernaturals preferring muscle-powered weapons when not fighting humans.

As for how QP is used, it is basically FP for magic. A vampire might use it to turn into bats. An Esper might use it generate a psychokinetic wave of destruction. A witch might use it to put a seal of misfortune on someone. Etc.

Edit: I think I should figure out something more elegant than the "In combat, each 5 QN you have above your opponent [..."] I wrote though. It does the job of making vampires and such deadly to humans (and random furniture), but makes the math a bit annoying.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

Edit: I think I should figure out something more elegant than the "In combat, each 5 QN you have above your opponent [..."] I wrote though. It does the job of making vampires and such deadly to humans (and random furniture), but makes the math a bit annoying.

One potential option would be to simply have set thresholds rather than doing a comparison. Say, a character with effective QN 1-3 is at -2 with QN-based damage, 4-8 is at -1, 9-13 is at +0, 14-18 or lower is at +1, 19-23 is at +2, etc. You subtract the defender's modifier from the attacker's, to a minimum of 0 if you don't want high QN to make characters more resilient, then multiply by 50% to see what the damage increase is (if you do want high QN to make characters more resilient, follow SSR - -1 is x0.7 damage, -2 is x0.5, -3 is x0.3, etc).

So, with your three examples, Joe Averageson is at -1, Vampire Punk is at +0, and Carrie is at +2. When Vampire Punk attacks Carrie, that's 0-2, which ends up +0, for +0% (or -2, for x0.5). When Carrie attacks Vampire Punk, that's 2-0, which ends up as +2, for +100%. When Carrie attacks Joe, that's 2-(-1), which ends up as +3, for +150%. When Vampire Punk attacks Joe, that's 0-(-1), which ends up as +1, for +50%.

You do lose some resolution - now QN 14 is +50% to damage against QN 13, due to them being on opposite sides of a breakpoint - but it's much simpler to use in play.

[DangerousThing]

I am planning to use Quintessence in my next game. I chose a simpler version.

Qi:

• is the attribute supernatural (psionis, magic, chi-powers) are based on.
• Will is based on Qi

In psionics, most psionic skills depend on a quick contest of skill vs qi or
will (depending on the attack). Therefore, it is a good thing to increase Qi for purely defensive purposes.

Humans have of Qi of 10, unless modified.

Qi Points (QP) are much like you described. They initially equal the base Qi of the character. One can create an energy reserve for 3 points per level. QP are mainly used (like FP) to power spells.

The main reason for using Qi is that I don't want all psi's to be geniuses. It's also possible to make a wizard who is physically weak.

[KarlKost]

I did an intake not too long ago about possible attributes for the game, I also did tinker around several "mystical" attributes that may be more simpler than add some supernatural "spiritual" attribute to your ST.

Maybe you'd want to check it out
Here

I just forgot to say what the "Spirit Points" would've been used for, but you'd have "Willpower Points" for extra effort into mental tasks and whatnot, so Spirit Points would be similar - completing a sort of triangle between Body, Mind and Spirit.

Check it out.

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

I did an intake not too long ago about possible attributes for the game, I also did tinker around several "mystical" attributes that may be more simpler than add some supernatural "spiritual" attribute to your ST.

Maybe you'd want to check it out
Here

I just forgot to say what the "Spirit Points" would've been used for, but you'd have "Willpower Points" for extra effort into mental tasks and whatnot, so Spirit Points would be similar - completing a sort of triangle between Body, Mind and Spirit.

Check it out.

Splitting up IQ is something I like, in theory, but in practice it adds a bunch of complexity when using GCS and the like. I'd rather avoid stuff that change what skills are based on since it will probably confuse new players.

Balancing the point costs is also a bit of a pain. I've tried it before but you basically run into a situation where "small" attributes end up costing 5 points/level which makes skills under them kind of pointless to raise above an investment of [4 points].

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by Varyon

One potential option would be to simply have set thresholds rather than doing a comparison. Say, a character with effective QN 1-3 is at -2 with QN-based damage, 4-8 is at -1, 9-13 is at +0, 14-18 or lower is at +1, 19-23 is at +2, etc. You subtract the defender's modifier from the attacker's, to a minimum of 0 if you don't want high QN to make characters more resilient, then multiply by 50% to see what the damage increase is (if you do want high QN to make characters more resilient, follow SSR - -1 is x0.7 damage, -2 is x0.5, -3 is x0.3, etc).

So, with your three examples, Joe Averageson is at -1, Vampire Punk is at +0, and Carrie is at +2. When Vampire Punk attacks Carrie, that's 0-2, which ends up +0, for +0% (or -2, for x0.5). When Carrie attacks Vampire Punk, that's 2-0, which ends up as +2, for +100%. When Carrie attacks Joe, that's 2-(-1), which ends up as +3, for +150%. When Vampire Punk attacks Joe, that's 0-(-1), which ends up as +1, for +50%.

You do lose some resolution - now QN 14 is +50% to damage against QN 13, due to them being on opposite sides of a breakpoint - but it's much simpler to use in play.

Probably something like that is a better solution, though the breakpoints kind of invite power-gaming.

One solution would be something like this:

Quintessence

Every point of QN gives +1 ST.

If you have more QN than the opponent/opponent's weapon you function as having half the margin in DR. This DR is considered infinitely hardened against "mundane" armor-divisor sources.

For additional multiple of your opponents QN divide their mundane DR by 2.

Every 3 points also gives a +1 to use and resist supernatural powers.

We'll assume most mundane matter has a QN of 5, and stuff reinforced by supernatural power could 10 or more.

Quintessence [14.5 + ? points/level]

Increased Strength [10 points];
Extra QP/EQ, recharge 1 per day [2 points];
DR 0.5 (based on margin of QN ~?%) [2.5 points];
DR-reduction stuff [? points];
Power Talent & supernatural resistance 0.33 [? points]

ST is now a secondary attribute to Quintessence, which looks a bit funny in GCS, but it works.

We'll put the mundane human back to 10 Quintessence, but their effective QN is going to be 5 due to the permanently reduced QP charge.

Anyway, let's see how that would change the combat test from before...

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The Vampire Punk punches Carrie. QN gives the vampire +1 damage giving their punch a damage of 3d6. Carrie has 9 more QN though which reduces the damage by 4. Final damage inflicted on Carrie is 6. Since Carrie now has 22 hit points she is going to make the punk regret that.

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Carrie is going to kick the vampire punk. Thanks to the +10 damage (and ST) from QN her kicks now deal a whoppin' 3d6+2. Average damage is 12. The vampire has 21 hp, so that is actually a major wound.

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The examples against Joe Averageson is going to result in him taking 10/12 damage unless he is wearing a bullet-proof vest or something in which case Carrie is getting a bit more bang for the buck due to reducing the DR much more than the Vampire Punk would (1/2 vs 1/8).

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As far as evaluating the actual value of Quintessence, we've got about 15.5 points of clear value stuff. I figure the final price could be 20.

The power talent is probably worth about 10 points, but since you only get one every 3 levels that makes for a value of 3.33. Rounded to 3 points

Reducing the DR of mundane matter is quite convenient but you generally just benefit every 5 levels and it doesn't work on high QN targets. If we assume that is the remaining 2 points you're paying 5*2 = 10 points for the ability to quickly make mundane DR quite useless. That is affordable cheap, but I think that's fine in this setting since running into combat in mundane SWAT gear isn't really meant to be strong.

Finally the DR from QN is hardened against mundane sources. That's actually quite a boon when considered in a vacuum, but also quite irrelevant to the campaign, so I'm not really putting that into the cost equation. Besides, I don't think I want to encourage the idea of players and NPCs jumping into the fray with anti-tank cannons like Seras Victoria from Hellsing. ...in part because stuff like that already deal more than enough damage. (If anything I'd rather nerf heavy firearms harder if I could come up with a sensible way without just banning them.)

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On actual usage of all this I intend to give "cheating within the system"-type entities like werewolves and vampires high ST and less spectacular QN. While "breaking the rules"-type entities like Outsiders and Espers will have high QN but the Forbidden QN disadvantage which severely hinders them in "stable" areas (raises effective QN of stuff by +5/+10)

Meanwhile the werewolves and vampires will have a limitation ( ~-20%) on ST (and some powers) not from QP which causes them to lose half in an unstable area, or all of it if they get stuck in an astral world. This really lets them cheaply bully humans and weaker supernaturals but makes it really suck if they get kidnapped by some crazy astral entity or whatever.

[RedMattis]

Rewritten for the above version.

Dis/Advantages

Sealed Quintessence [-50]
QP naturally drains down to 1/3 resulting in halved resistance to supernatural effects.
Cannot gain advantage from high QN. (unless in an Astral World)

Limited Quintessence [-25]
Does not gain any advantage in contests from higher-than-the-opposition QN. (unless in an Astral World)

Forbidden Limited Quintessence [-30]
Obvious supernatural effect if QN is used to resist a powerful attack.
Does not gain any advantage in contests from higher-than-the-opposition QN. (unless in an Astral World)

Forbidden Quintessence [-20]
Obvious supernatural effect when QN is used actively or if resisting a powerful attack. (unless in an Astral World)
In Stable/Highly Stable areas your QN is considered up to -5/-10 lower when used offensively. If you are striking someone it will not go lower than the 'legitimate' strength of your body however.
Repeated use can cause stable/highly stable areas to temporarily lose stability.

Essence Generator [5/level]
You recover more than 1 QP (or 10% of max QP) per day. Max level is 10.

Level 1: 1 per 12 hours
Level 2: 1 per hour
Level 3: 1 per 30 minutes
Level 4: 1 per 10 minutes
Level 5: 1 per 5 minutes
Level 6: 1 per 2 minutes
Level 7: 1 per 1 minutes
Level 8: 1 per 30 seconds
Level 9: 1 per 10 seconds
Level 10: 1 per 5 seconds

Templates

Mundane Human [-50]
Sealed Quintessence [-50]

Witch, or Low-tier Supernatural [-25]
Limited Quintessence [-25]

Fledgling Esper [-30]
Forbidden Limited Quintessence [-30]

Unchained Esper or Outsider [-20 points]
Forbidden Quintessence [-20];



Meta-Traits/Race Templates

Cursed Lunatic Werewolf
Lunatic in this case uses the old meaning of the word; being affected by the moon-phase.

Attributes
ST 10* | DX: 11 | IQ: 10 | HT: 12 | QN 12
HP 12 | FP 12 | QP: 12

Human Form
Limited Quintessence
Lunacy
Involuntarily turns into wolf until the next Witching Hour if caught under the full moon after sundown.

Timber Wolf Form
ST+5 (* 2 of which is from the QN being unlocked)
IQ-2
Lunacy
Bestial
Bad Temper
Removed Limited Quintessence

[naloth]

Most of the disadvantages seem better modeled as limitations on Quintessence, since the severity of the effect is often determined by how much you have. "Sealed" Quintessence seems better as reducing an attribute priced for how much Quintessence is worth.

I'm a bit fuzzy on why QN is worth less than Quintessence if everything is based off your QN number and bonus QN increase your hypothetical cap.

I'm also not sure how far reaching you're intending the effects to be. I'd limit them to "Natural Strikers" if you only want Quintessence to only help attacks purchased with points. For a Highlander type effect, you could specify "Melee Attacks," though that's going push lots of weapon use. It seems a bit too powerful to add to all attacks including ranged. It just makes guns that much better.

Personally, I'd prefer fixed benefits rather than benefits based on comparisons. Disclosing to the players that you are fighting "a QN 12 vamp, a QN 16 vamp, while over here is a QN 22 werewolf" sounds like it would bog down the game with unnecessary metagame data.

Last, I'm not sure why you're intent on making this an attribute. It seems easier to tack onto existing templates as an advantage bought up from nothing.

[RedMattis]

Originally Posted by naloth

Most of the disadvantages seem better modeled as limitations on Quintessence, since the severity of the effect is often determined by how much you have. "Sealed" Quintessence seems better as reducing an attribute priced for how much Quintessence is worth.

I think you're right. Forbidden could be both actually, similar to how No Fine Manipulators reduces the cost of ST. "Forbidden" basically adds a slight nuisance effect to the character's natural strength.

I'm a bit fuzzy on why QN is worth less than Quintessence if everything is based off your QN number and bonus QN increase your hypothetical cap.

QN is Quintessence, just as ST is Strength.

Maybe you're thinking of QP? That one is basically FP. It is just happens that regular humans are permanently stuck at low QP levels, reduces your stats (QN) just like low FP does (ST). (basically they are unconsciously projecting it into the world).

I'm also not sure how far reaching you're intending the effects to be. I'd limit them to "Natural Strikers" if you only want Quintessence to only help attacks purchased with points. For a Highlander type effect, you could specify "Melee Attacks," though that's going push lots of weapon use. It seems a bit too powerful to add to all attacks including ranged. It just makes guns that much better.

Well, using the version posted a bit above QN is basically just ST with other stuff tacked on. For stuff like armor-divisor you won't get the effect when using weapons. Also especially Forbidden QN will tend to result in you breaking the weapon since it is unintentionally destructive to mundane stuff.

Espers temporarily enchanting random junk with Psionic power to make it sturdier that it should is fine, but it is more of a melee/throwing/muscle-powered weapon thing. Same for vampires wielding swords of blood or whatever. Probably both cases would be Innate Attacks; I'll just use something like the "ST-Based" enchantment for melee innate attacks.

Personally, I'd prefer fixed benefits rather than benefits based on comparisons. Disclosing to the players that you are fighting "a QN 12 vamp, a QN 16 vamp, while over here is a QN 22 werewolf" sounds like it would bog down the game with unnecessary metagame data.

Well, if someone has Aura Vision or whatever they might be able to tell roughly (I never tell my players stats during the gameplay though), but generally it just going to be 'Outsiders/Espers have high QN'. Other supernaturals have fancier powers and often high ST.

Last, I'm not sure why you're intent on making this an attribute. It seems easier to tack onto existing templates as an advantage bought up from nothing.

A leveled trait would get roughly the same effect, yeah, but honestly an attribute sounds easier? Especially since in GCS I can just set ST and QP (basically ER) to be based on QN and players won't have to tinker with advantages. I'm not sure why it seems easier to tack an advantage on instead?

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

Splitting up IQ is something I like, in theory, but in practice it adds a bunch of complexity when using GCS and the like. I'd rather avoid stuff that change what skills are based on since it will probably confuse new players.

Balancing the point costs is also a bit of a pain. I've tried it before but you basically run into a situation where "small" attributes end up costing 5 points/level which makes skills under them kind of pointless to raise above an investment of [4 points].

I just threw out a few ideas under the bridge, nothing definitive. I raised Per and Will to 10 CPs each, with Will providing Willpower Points, and Per calculated into Basic Speed, and independent from IQ, with Carisma/Empathy as social attributes. Not so hard to divide actually.

And basically Magery and other Power Talents as a Quint attribute