Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-30-2020, 05:14 AM   #11
Luke Bunyip
 
Luke Bunyip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Kingdom of Insignificance
Default Re: [AtE]Best bang for your Warlord buck?

Quote:
Originally Posted by (E) View Post
Why would a warlord be making the best guns for the situation?

Wouldn't they rather be making weapons that serve their personal requirements best, as interpreted by the individual(s) who are doing the designing and manufacturing.
Exactly. But it then begs the question, what is the environment and circumstances where these firearms will be used? Possibly best isn't the appropriate criteria, but what's good enough is what needs to be considered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (E) View Post
For example an Air Rifle might be useful as it requires less logistics, but conversely a warlord might prefer to have his(or her) goons reliant on the ammunition he or she provides.
Before I posted the OP here, I had a wee chat with one of my players that is a gun owner that hunts. We specifically discussed air rifles (one of the other players wants one), and the question was why bother making a complex repeating air rifle, when you could have a number of single shots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by (E) View Post
...they could decide that a large sight radius is critical and insist that all the rifles are long barreled like Kentucky long rifles or Jazails.
Tactically, I'm looking at a setting with a very flat alluvial plain, bordered by sandy hills / sand dunes, or a rocky range of hill country. Not much cover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (E) View Post
A third issue is surpluses...there might be hundreds of a specific automotive part available...
Apparently there was a 1950s era sedan made in Britain, which got shipped to the UK's West African colonies. When some enterprising bright spark realised that the internal diameter of this car's axle was very similar to that of a certain pistol calibre ammunition, the repurposing took a number of vehicles off the road.

Quote:
Originally Posted by (E) View Post
Or going back to your original question, how about a lever/pump/bolt action repeater that fires a pistol calibre round because of the lower stresses on gun parts.
Break action double barrelled sawn off shotguns? Revolvers?
__________________
It's all very well to be told to act my age, but I've never been this old before...
Luke Bunyip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2020, 05:21 AM   #12
Luke Bunyip
 
Luke Bunyip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Kingdom of Insignificance
Default Re: [AtE]Best bang for your Warlord buck?

Quote:
Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
I always recommend the muzzle loading flintlock rifle ... the basic design is hard to beat for performance vs. pre-industrial production costs.
They're a given. I'm looking for some nuancing between different factions if possibly, which is why I'm publicly musing about this. For instance, I can envisage all sort of zip guns, but some bespoke made percussion cap revolvers.

Given my OP is driven by my envisaged game setting, I've already sketched out camel riding desert Aborigines, armed with faux Jezzails.
__________________
It's all very well to be told to act my age, but I've never been this old before...
Luke Bunyip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2020, 05:37 AM   #13
Luke Bunyip
 
Luke Bunyip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Kingdom of Insignificance
Default Re: [AtE]Best bang for your Warlord buck?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
For the amount of effort needed to manufacture, semi-auto weapons simply out compete everything lesser.
This is the crux of my question; is it? Yes in a ruined abandoned town, or in broken country, but always? Given that ammunition is hand made/reloaded, supply can be haphazard, and fire control can be undisciplined, I can blithely foresee a situation where it comes down to who has the bigger pile of lead.

But I don't have experience in using auto or semi-auto weapons, and I've never had to lug a long arm over hill and dale. So, can you clarify, add detail?

Happy if we discuss Plevna etc. Also, would a large calibre long barrelled percussion cap revolver feed carbine suffice?
__________________
It's all very well to be told to act my age, but I've never been this old before...

Last edited by Luke Bunyip; 04-30-2020 at 05:45 AM.
Luke Bunyip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2020, 12:47 PM   #14
Verjigorm
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Charlotte, North Caroline, United States of America, Earth?
Default Re: [AtE]Best bang for your Warlord buck?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Bunyip View Post
This is the crux of my question; is it? Yes in a ruined abandoned town, or in broken country, but always? Given that ammunition is hand made/reloaded, supply can be haphazard, and fire control can be undisciplined, I can blithely foresee a situation where it comes down to who has the bigger pile of lead.

But I don't have experience in using auto or semi-auto weapons, and I've never had to lug a long arm over hill and dale. So, can you clarify, add detail?

Happy if we discuss Plevna etc. Also, would a large calibre long barrelled percussion cap revolver feed carbine suffice?
Yes, Semi-autos are ALWAYS better than bolt-guns and trap-doors. I'd say that lever action is more of a corner-case, but if I had an option, I would always pick a semi-auto over a bolt gun or trap door(though I have no practical experience with trapdoor rifles). A cursorary reading of Plevna seems to suggest that it's an excellent example of why repeating rifles out perform older designs.

Now, there's also a cultural element here: in the states, ammunition is plentiful. It's so plentiful that my momma(who doesn't have ANY guns) has several boxes of 12ga 00 buck and slug. Where'd it come from? None of us know? I've got a .40 S&W cartridge sitting a foot to the left of me as I type this, and I found it on the road by my driveway. There's just SOOOOO much of it, and so much of the equipment associated with it, that I can't imagine a plausible apocalyptic scenario where cartridges would be exceptionally rare. This of course, may not apply to Oz.

Percussion caps just seem to combine the worst parts of muzzle-loading and cartridges: they're fiddly, you have a lot of steps to get the rifle ready, and they're a logistical complication. And I feel like, if you can make percussion caps, you can make primers for cartridges.
__________________
Hydration is key
Verjigorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2020, 01:08 PM   #15
Black Leviathan
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Default Re: [AtE] Best bang for your Warlord buck?

I think level of industry is pretty important here. A dedicated warlord might be able to get a percussion cap pistol made in a few months if he cracks the whip on a gunsmith, or he could make a few dozen cheap matchlock blunderbusses or a hundred good quality crossbows. If he has a worshop with good tools and maybe even electrical power he could crank out dozens of pistols in that time. Presumedly he's god a lot of guys to arm.

I think percussion cap revolver is the dream gun. It can be made without precision machining, provides good firepower, simple to load and care for.
Black Leviathan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2020, 02:15 PM   #16
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: [AtE] Best bang for your Warlord buck?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Leviathan View Post
I think percussion cap revolver is the dream gun. It can be made without precision machining, provides good firepower, simple to load and care for.
Percussion caps require the ability to produce primer. Flintlocks do not.
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.
Anthony is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2020, 03:06 PM   #17
copeab
 
copeab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: near Houston
Default Re: [AtE]Best bang for your Warlord buck?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
Some sort of semi-auto. For the amount of effort needed to manufacture, semi-auto weapons simply out compete everything lesser. A squad of men with semi-autos should completely overwhelm a platoon of bolt-guns, and probably a very large number of flintlock users. You just can't beat the semi-auto.
If the semi-auto is black powder, a lot of things will beat it. Sure you can fire a number of shots quickky, but black powder fouling will also occur faster. You are better off with a lever-action if speed matters.

Anyway, with the smoke produced by mass fire of black powder rifles, you are quickly going to obscure your own view.

Lastly, to prevent the wastage of cartridge, I see the reintroduction of magazine cutoffs for troops. Kinda defeats the purpose of having a semi-automatic.
__________________
A generous and sadistic GM,
Brandon Cope

GURPS 3e stuff: http://copeab.tripod.com
copeab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2020, 03:09 PM   #18
copeab
 
copeab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: near Houston
Default Re: [AtE] Best bang for your Warlord buck?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Percussion caps require the ability to produce primer. Flintlocks do not.
You could make improved rocketball ammo, although range and damage are poor. However, you don't need cartridge cases and the round is self contained. Or perhaps a Chassepot clone, using paper cartridges.
__________________
A generous and sadistic GM,
Brandon Cope

GURPS 3e stuff: http://copeab.tripod.com
copeab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2020, 03:30 PM   #19
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: [AtE] Best bang for your Warlord buck?

Quote:
Originally Posted by copeab View Post
You could make improved rocketball ammo, although range and damage are poor. However, you don't need cartridge cases and the round is self contained. Or perhaps a Chassepot clone, using paper cartridges.
Making a percussion cap requires primers, so if you can make percussion caps at all you might as well make brass cartridge ammunition.
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.
Anthony is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2020, 04:31 PM   #20
Verjigorm
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Charlotte, North Caroline, United States of America, Earth?
Default Re: [AtE]Best bang for your Warlord buck?

Quote:
Originally Posted by copeab View Post
If the semi-auto is black powder, a lot of things will beat it. Sure you can fire a number of shots quickky, but black powder fouling will also occur faster. You are better off with a lever-action if speed matters.

Anyway, with the smoke produced by mass fire of black powder rifles, you are quickly going to obscure your own view.

Lastly, to prevent the wastage of cartridge, I see the reintroduction of magazine cutoffs for troops. Kinda defeats the purpose of having a semi-automatic.
Yeah, I don't find any of those points to actually have much substance. During the ACW, troops who could afford it would buy their own Henry repeating rifles, to the point that while only 1700 or so were bought by official order, some 5000 to 7000 henry's saw use, purchased by the soldiers out of their own pockets. I imagine these soldiers did not buy them for no reason, as they were not inexpensive weapons at the time. At the massacre at Little Big Horn, repeating rifles in the hands of Native Americans were probably instrumental in routing US soldiers. At Plevna, the Ottomans with winchester repeating rifles mowed down hordes of russians equipped with inferior weapons. And the semi-auto, detachable box magazine is at least an order of a magnitude better than a lever-action.

The complaints about ammunition usage among the soldiers seem to have been a common hold-up of western militaries in adopting repeating rifles of any sort, and this held up well into WW2, with self-loading rifles being required to still work as bolt guns. During WW1, European nations resisted equipping their troops with trench magazines, because of fears of "wasting" ammunition. Which is ironic, considering some of these nations practiced the "mad minute".

The strength of the semi-automatic is not that you always shoot it as fast as you can, it's that when needed, you have that capability. A lever action is similar in this regard, though internal magazines are slower to reload than detachable box magazines. However, the M1 garand is a great example of a semi-auto that doesn't have a detachable box magazine(as is the SKS), so you're not exactly wedded to that part of the design.

Lastly, I'm assuming that in the after-math of an apocalypse that destroys state authority and throws industrial capability so far back that people are building their own guns out of scrap, that standing armies of thousands or tens of thousands are not really a concern. I'm instead assuming that most "battles" will be more like skirmishes, and less like set piece conflicts between great powers. And in that scenario, the increased short term firepower of a repeater is going to be the difference between staying mostly alive and being raped, dismembered and eaten, and not necessarily in that order.

Now, this is all dependent on cultural factors of the area the campaign takes place in.
__________________
Hydration is key
Verjigorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
ate, high-tech

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.