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Old 10-19-2010, 11:35 PM   #1
Trachmyr
 
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Default [Low-Tech] Clothing Stats: HT vs. LT

There seems to be some discrepancy between the statistics give in High-Tech and in Low-Tech concerning clothing. High-Tech states that it’s rules elaborate on what’s in basic set. The stats given for Summer/Ordinary clothes match basic, and it gives new stats for Winter Clothes which seems to follow the same progression.

High-Tech also states:
Quote:
The complete outfits below include the cost of appropriate
footwear but not its weight; see Footwear (pp. 68-69) for that.
This is good or the weight of ordinary clothes would seem to indicate that you’re running around naked with just a pair of shoes!

High-Tech also has a handy-dandy table for adjusting the weight of clothing based on TL (Clothing Technology Table, HT.65). This table indicates that the weight of TL5 & TL6 outfits should be doubled. OK, makes sense.

High-Tech also introduces a new type of clothing set, Artic Clothing. It has a cost of 50% cost-of-living & a weight of 15 pounds… multiplied by 1.5 at TL5-6, for a total of 22.5lbs. (not including the weight of shoes).

But the we have Low-Tech… it has a few problems.
  • First, it states that:
Quote:
Ordinary and winter clothing include basic footwear
in their cost and weight. Winter clothing includes basic
hand wear, too.
  • Second, there is no mention of doubling weights! Presumably, TL0-4 outfits are made of lighter weight materials than TL5-6 outfits!
  • Third, the weight (base weight?) of Winter Clothing doesn’t match HT… it’s only a pound, but a pound makes a difference… and an inconsistency (but it’s still lighter than TL5 winter clothes)
  • Lastly, I assume Artic clothing is “replicated” by using Winter Clothing and adding a Parka (listed on LT.99). But neither the cost or the weight matches anything close to what is presented in High-Tech.

The difference in weight isn’t trivial, compare:
  • Summer Clothes with sandals in HT (at TL5) is 2.5lbs. versus Low-Tech’s 1.5lbs.
  • Ordinary Clothes with shoes in HT (at TL5) is 6lbs. versus Low-Tech’s 2lbs.
  • Winter Clothes with boots in HT (at TL5) is 11lbs. versus Low-Tech’s 5lbs.
  • Artic Clothes with boots in HT (at TL5) is 25.5lbs. versus Low-Tech’s Winter Clothes, Boots & Parka at 15lbs. (plus the costs only match at TL2 for status 0)

This also becomes a problem when trying to extrapolate the weights for things in Low-Tech such as Silk, Furs and Light Leather.

--------------

I would appreciate if these inconsistencies could be cleared up…

Last edited by Trachmyr; 10-20-2010 at 06:24 AM.
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Old 10-20-2010, 02:53 AM   #2
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Clothing Stats: HT vs. LT

It should be noted that there is already errata which relates to this.

Don't know to what degree it deals with your problem, though.
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Old 10-20-2010, 03:44 AM   #3
Gudiomen
 
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Clothing Stats: HT vs. LT

There are discrepancies with Basic too.

I'd place my bets on Low-Tech, since weight revision was an issue that was specially looked into, as there was a lot of uproar that current GURPS weights for armor, especially, were a little out of whack.

GURPS Low-Tech weights are consistent with reality. We have very hot summers here (over 30C) and decently harsh winters (as low as -5C), and the weight for summer clothing and winter clothing is spot on. And on account of tradition, we still have historical clothing and attire that was worn in TL4-5. There's stuff that probably weighs less than what Low-Tech presents, 1lb for sandals is a good average... 2.5lbs seems excessive, that's more than a kilogram. Think rope, wicker and... cloth. Not heavy stuff, maybe High-Tech was picturing leather?

We have winter clothing here, and we also buy from Uruguay and Argentina that have harsher winters (I live in the very south of Brazil, it's not all tropical, you know). Hot clothing is not nececarily heavy clothing. Wool keeps you warm by retaining hot air within it's fibers. Parkas are pretty good stuff. Wool shirts are also very hot, if a bit heavier.

Besides the discrepancies, do you have real life examples of clothing that diverge so significantly from what Low-Tech presents?

To me it's the weights on HT that seem off...
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Old 10-20-2010, 04:13 AM   #4
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Clothing Stats: HT vs. LT

@ Ulzgoroth: I did see the errata thread after I posted this thread (forgot it was in the e23 forum). It covers the issue with footwear/handwear weights being included in the clothing cost, so at least one part of the issue is addressed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gudiomen View Post
There are discrepancies with Basic too.
No, as far as I can tell concerning clothing, HT and Basic agree fully. HT just clarifies a that footwear weight is not included, and provides a table to adjust weight by TL.

Quote:
I'd place my bets on Low-Tech, since weight revision was an issue that was specially looked into, as there was a lot of uproar that current GURPS weights for armor, especially, were a little out of whack.
Agreed for armor, but the clothing section was copy and pasted from Basic/HT (except Winter Outfit weight was 1lb different). However it didn't take into account the weight multiplier by TL. Either HT or LT needs errata... by bet is on LT.

Quote:
GURPS Low-Tech weights are consistent with reality. We have very hot summers here (over 30C) and decently harsh winters (as low as -5C), and the weight for summer clothing and winter clothing is spot on. And on account of tradition, we still have historical clothing and attire that was worn in TL4-5. There's stuff that probably weighs less than what Low-Tech presents
For modern clothes perhaps... but lower-tl clothes are generally heavier due to heavier threads, materials (flax instead of cotton or synthetics) and production methods.

Quote:
1lb for sandals is a good average... 2.5lbs seems excessive, that's more than a kilogram. Think rope, wicker and... cloth. Not heavy stuff, maybe High-Tech was picturing leather?
You misread what I posted... the 2.5lbs is for Summer Clothes plus Sandals (Sandals are actually presented in LT at 0.5lbs), not sandals alone. But LT gives the weight as 1.5lbs., not a huge difference. The problem lies more with the heavier versions of clothes.

Quote:
We have winter clothing here, and we also buy from Uruguay and Argentina that have harsher winters (I live in the very south of Brazil, it's not all tropical, you know). Hot clothing is not nececarily heavy clothing. Wool keeps you warm by retaining hot air within it's fibers. Parkas are pretty good stuff. Wool shirts are also very hot, if a bit heavier.
Agreed... but again that is modern clothing. As explained in High-Tech (pg.64), lower tl clothes use heavier natural fibers... this increases the weight compared to modern clothes.

Quote:
Besides the discrepancies, do you have real life examples of clothing that diverge so significantly from what Low-Tech presents?
Not specific articles... but fibers and the techniques that produced them. Heavier fibers and thicker yarn mean greater weight. Add in the weight of buckles, heavier buttons and brass eyes/hooks, and it's easy to understand the increased weight.

Quote:
To me it's the weights on HT that seem off...
I have to disagree, not only does it seem more correct, but it's obvious by reading the clothing sections in both HT and LT that much more research was done for clothing in High-tech.
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Old 10-20-2010, 07:12 AM   #5
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Clothing Stats: HT vs. LT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trachmyr View Post
I have to disagree, not only does it seem more correct, but it's obvious by reading the clothing sections in both HT and LT that much more research was done for clothing in High-tech.
I suspect that this is correct.

Certainly, during the playtest, I noted the clothing section only as a copy-paste job from High-Tech, mutatis mutandis, and assumed that the numbers there were correct.
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Old 10-20-2010, 10:59 AM   #6
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Clothing Stats: HT vs. LT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trachmyr View Post
High-Tech also has a handy-dandy table for adjusting the weight of clothing based on TL (Clothing Technology Table, HT.65).
As an aside, I would have liked to have this for UT, too.
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Old 10-20-2010, 12:16 PM   #7
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Clothing Stats: HT vs. LT

Quote:
Originally Posted by walkir View Post
As an aside, I would have liked to have this for UT, too.
UT has the suitspray, swarmwear, and clothing belt (pages 39-40), which are about as lightweight as is physically possible (the carried weight/encumbrance of swarmwear is exactly zero). Suitspray is basically the lightest real clothing you can get (and incidentally, spray-on clothing is already being developed in the real world). For protection against rain, sun, and cold, you need some physical barrier, and to make it sufficiently practical for everyday use you end up with a weight quite close to the best we have to offer today. Where you see improvements is in the material's properties (easier to clean, built-in computers, one-size-fits-most), which is covered by the options on pages 38-39.

I find it mostly reasonable that UT didn't continue the clothing-weight-by-TL progression. The one area where it could have mentioned was clothes that adjust their insulation and thermal reflectivity to optimize the wearer's comfort; this tech is presumably used in environmental suits and the space skinsuit, but it would have been nice to see that one outfit could be sufficient for light-, normal-, and winter-wear (like the Star Trek fleet uniforms).
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