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Old 08-27-2020, 06:14 AM   #11
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: An Alternate Approach to Talents

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
I.e. levels?
Tiers... Novice, Veteran and Legend. They're more broad than the current IQ-based structure since they use the character's total attribute value. It reinforces the 'heroic journey' aspect of RPGs that my players and I prefer.

P.S. TFT already has 'levels'. They're just represented more abstractly in the form of ST, DX and IQ.
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Old 08-27-2020, 09:11 AM   #12
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Default Re: An Alternate Approach to Talents

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I say nay, this is highly undesirable. I'd much rather see attribute progression much, much easier, with plenty of tasty high IQ talents available to tempt one to choose IQ increases over increasing ST or DX to "superhero" levels. Then the choice is more between getting better at something the character already does (boring after awhile), or acquiring totally new, character-defining abilities (interesting).
I'm surprised, then, that you don't care for my proposal, since continually adding IQ eventually gets to the point where there is a 90%+ chance of success on a 3d roll for any talent using IQ. Boring, no?

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I'd like to see talents above IQ 14. I'd like to see several of the existing talents, especially expert talents, kicked up higher on the tables.
Again, at 18 IQ, there is a 50% success rate on 5d rolls!

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For example, an IQ 11 figure that starts with Physicker not only needs to increase their IQ by 3 points to qualify to take Master Physicker (IQ 14), but after completing that daunting task still needs another 1,000 XP to buy the "talent points". Divert any XP to raising a survival attribute, ST or DX, or taking any other talent along the way to help keep the character alive, and the player is looking at years of playing time to achieve just this one relatively modest goal.
Exactly so! But not only that, the newly minted Master Physicker has become strangely competent at all tasks requiring a 3d or 4d IQ roll, thanks to the IQ 14 prerequisite, and, even though they might be timid as a mouse, they've become nearly immune to the Control Person spell.

The system of IQ prerequisites forces characters into molds and thus discourages diversity. Consider a character intended to be just a really good soldier: the system pretty much forces them to be have IQ 13 and ST & DX 14 each. If the IQ requirement were lowered, you could have figures with average IQ still being skilled swordsmen who could fight well from horseback, and without being necessarily good at all mental tasks.
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Old 08-28-2020, 01:52 AM   #13
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Default Re: An Alternate Approach to Talents

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I'm surprised, then, that you don't care for my proposal
Ah, I agree you've spotted a problem and proposed a viable solution. Adding character tiers to the game seems like a drastic step though in terms of TFT's "flavor", so I was just musing aloud about other possible approaches.

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... continually adding IQ eventually gets to the point where there is a 90%+ chance of success on a 3d roll for any talent using IQ. Boring, no?
And there's the rub! In original TFT we hardly ever rolled vs IQ except for disbelieving illusions*, but with Legacy the IQ stat gets used for more rolls, and that creates the problem.

Anywhere the RAW use any attribute level as both a gatekeeper to qualify to try some thing, as well as the stat tested to succeed at doing that very same thing, we're stuck with a tautology! A system that could avoid these tautological problems would be a better system. My little proposal to raise the ceiling on IQ would only aggravate the trouble with this.

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Again, at 18 IQ, there is a 50% success rate on 5d rolls!
Actually this specific case doesn't bother me so much. A 50% chance at something really, really hard that you're really, really prepared for doesn't sound too unreasonable. But yeah, 90% on 3d6 rolls is getting ridiculous!
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*
I actually have a little solution for that single case: a "Re-enforce Illusion" spell to make an illusion harder to disbelieve. The wizard who knew the "Re-enforce" spell could automatically create a "tougher" illusion by paying the additional cost at the same time as creating the illusion, or could pay the cost separately to shore up an existing illusion with a separate casting. Of course a PC should NOT be entitled to know the IQ of opponents, so whether or not they'd need to use the "Re-enforce" spell should be a matter of guesswork, which right there makes things a little more interesting.

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Old 08-28-2020, 06:12 AM   #14
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Default Re: An Alternate Approach to Talents

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Actually this specific case doesn't bother me so much. A 50% chance at something really, really hard that you're really, really prepared for doesn't sound too unreasonable.
I was looking at it from the other side: a 50% success rate on tasks for which the character is totally unprepared and has little or no experience with.
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Old 08-28-2020, 06:25 AM   #15
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Default Re: An Alternate Approach to Talents

The way to prevent Mollies is to eliminate spellcasting vs IQ rolls and make ST count for something. Then characters will need to invest in all three stats under the 40 cap.
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Old 08-28-2020, 08:02 AM   #16
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Default Re: An Alternate Approach to Talents

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The way to prevent Mollies is to eliminate spellcasting vs IQ rolls and make ST count for something. Then characters will need to invest in all three stats under the 40 cap.
Yes, those spells that use IQ for the success role undermine the balance of the three stats. But changing those spells alone does not solve the issue of IQ prerequisites actually working against character diversity.

I've been thinking that the sum of all three attributes to set prerequisite levels is a better way to ensure that some talents are simply not available to beginning or mid-level characters, but perhaps better yet would be tracking XP in two says: Total Earned and Available, and use the Total Earned as the prerequisite. I'm happier with keeping spells with IQ prerequisites, though I'm not convinced that the existing levels work well with the new XP system.
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Old 08-28-2020, 08:46 AM   #17
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Default Re: An Alternate Approach to Talents

Just mark the expert spells and talents (Fencer, Staff II, etc.) as unavailable to starting characters and can only be bought with XPs.
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Old 08-28-2020, 09:18 AM   #18
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Default Re: An Alternate Approach to Talents

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Just mark the expert spells and talents (Fencer, Staff II, etc.) as unavailable to starting characters and can only be bought with XPs.
That still leaves the IQ prerequisite inplace, which forces characters into a narrow set of attribute allocations.
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Old 08-28-2020, 11:56 AM   #19
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Default Re: An Alternate Approach to Talents

Which common character concepts are unsupported in Legacy TFT? Fictional characters who are very strong, very agile, and very smart are noted in their sources as being very very exceptional.

The main limitation TFT has is that we can't do the knight in plate armor who is an effective fighter and instead wind up with the clumsy French buffoons of Agincourt .
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Old 08-28-2020, 02:05 PM   #20
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Default Re: An Alternate Approach to Talents

I wholeheartedly agree that TFT provides the simplest path to the greatest diversity of character types of any game I can easily think of; you can do anything from Elric of Melnibone to Aragorn to the Grey Mouser to Tarzan to Ged to Conan and on and on without a single house rule.

But I do disagree re. the supposed problem with knights. The following character is clearly a knight, clearly hard to kill, easily achieved after moderate amounts of experience, and not a baffoon:

ST 13 DX 15(11) IQ 10
Armor: Fine plate, small shield (+expertise), Toughness I: 9 pts of armor, -1 to hit in melee
Weapons: Lance, Bastard sword, Dagger
Talents: Sword, shield, pole weapons, toughness, shield expertise, horsemanship

You could come up with pretty good versions like this at 35-37 points as well. A decent 32 point 'knight-like' figure might be:

ST 10 DX 14(10) IQ 8
Armor: Fine plate, small shield: 7 pts of armor
Weapons: saber, dagger
Talents: Sword, shield, horsemanship
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