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Old 11-22-2021, 03:50 AM   #11
Varyon
 
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Default Re: On using grenades

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
I wish I could appeal to GURPS Court Martial.
I'm not saying the GURPS Military Police is going to show up at your gaming table to take you away, I'm saying if your character is acting as a member of a military, he's likely going to be looking at a Court Martial for pulling a stunt like this. Doing this as a way to just get 1 second for free "cooking" would probably be more acceptable; I had thought you were talking about pulling the pin, then continuing to fight until it's time to throw. Even that's likely to get you into serious trouble if anyone finds out, I'd think.

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
You don't need the grenade "Ready" to ready it, since it is not an attack but a simple interaction.
Fair enough, a single Ready without a preceding Ready or Fast-Draw would probably be acceptable for pulling the pin while still in the pouch.

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
Otherwise, we all play games with dice, does it really matter if it rolls an 18 now, and not on that dodge one second later?
You're basically adding in a "save or die" roll; it's comparable to standing out in the open rather than taking cover when it's available (which would increase the number of potential hits, and thus the necessary number of Dodge attempts), although a contact explosion with a grenade is more likely to kill you than a hit from a rifle (higher damage).

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
Even better, no need to drop the rifle, GURPS doesn't seem to require you to remove a hand from the weapon as part of a ready maneuver and then return it to the firearm - reloading only covers actions actually spent on reloading, it doesn't tax you 2 ready maneuvers to ungrab a weapon to reach for magazine, and then to re-grab it after reload is finished! Reasonably, a grenade sits in the pouch snuggly enough, and attached to it by spoon, that you can interact with the ring reliably.
For the first bit, dropping something in your hand is typically a free action (it's an Attack action if you're trying to drop it on a target below you, however), but I think taking one hand off a two-handed weapon makes it unReady, and you need to either take a Ready or a relevant Fast-Draw (at a sizable bonus, I'd say) to get it back into usable condition (for reloading, you're getting your hand back in position as part of the reloading process, so no additional Ready is needed). If moving your hands around like that were a free action, you wouldn't require Readies to change Reach on long spears and polearms (and to switch between using a bayoneted rifle as a rifle and using it as a spear). I don't think GURPS definitively states one way or the other, so the above is how I'd be inclined to handle it (at least in a realistic campaign).

For the second bit, first off I think the spoon is a safety lever that has to be depressed in order to pull the pin, which would necessitate two hands on the grenade. Failing that, grenade pins require quite a bit of force to pull out, so I'm not certain you could reliably do it with one hand while the grenade stays in the pouch, but then I've never pulled a grenade pin. In a cinematic campaign, that would undoubtedly be doable, as it's easy enough to just do it with your teeth without messing them up (you could also prepare the grenade ahead of time by unbending the ends of the pin, making a one-handed pull or a teeth-assisted pull more readily doable, but also making it much easier for the grenade to get armed by accident).
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Old 11-22-2021, 05:12 AM   #12
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Default Re: On using grenades

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I'm not saying the GURPS Military Police is going to show up at your gaming table to take you away, I'm saying if your character is acting as a member of a military, he's likely going to be looking at a Court Martial for pulling a stunt like this. Doing this as a way to just get 1 second for free "cooking" would probably be more acceptable; I had thought you were talking about pulling the pin, then continuing to fight until it's time to throw. Even that's likely to get you into serious trouble if anyone finds out, I'd think.



Fair enough, a single Ready without a preceding Ready or Fast-Draw would probably be acceptable for pulling the pin while still in the pouch.



You're basically adding in a "save or die" roll; it's comparable to standing out in the open rather than taking cover when it's available (which would increase the number of potential hits, and thus the necessary number of Dodge attempts), although a contact explosion with a grenade is more likely to kill you than a hit from a rifle (higher damage).



For the first bit, dropping something in your hand is typically a free action (it's an Attack action if you're trying to drop it on a target below you, however), but I think taking one hand off a two-handed weapon makes it unReady, and you need to either take a Ready or a relevant Fast-Draw (at a sizable bonus, I'd say) to get it back into usable condition (for reloading, you're getting your hand back in position as part of the reloading process, so no additional Ready is needed). If moving your hands around like that were a free action, you wouldn't require Readies to change Reach on long spears and polearms (and to switch between using a bayoneted rifle as a rifle and using it as a spear). I don't think GURPS definitively states one way or the other, so the above is how I'd be inclined to handle it (at least in a realistic campaign).

For the second bit, first off I think the spoon is a safety lever that has to be depressed in order to pull the pin, which would necessitate two hands on the grenade. Failing that, grenade pins require quite a bit of force to pull out, so I'm not certain you could reliably do it with one hand while the grenade stays in the pouch, but then I've never pulled a grenade pin. In a cinematic campaign, that would undoubtedly be doable, as it's easy enough to just do it with your teeth without messing them up (you could also prepare the grenade ahead of time by unbending the ends of the pin, making a one-handed pull or a teeth-assisted pull more readily doable, but also making it much easier for the grenade to get armed by accident).
Mayhaps you're right, drop the gun as free action, 1 ready with both hands to activate the grenade, then fast-draw (rifle) to re-arm yourself (somehow juggling guns is faster than taking a hand off to interact with your gear, though it does require a roll.)

Quote:
Doing this as a way to just get 1 second for free "cooking" would probably be more acceptable; I had thought you were talking about pulling the pin, then continuing to fight until it's time to throw. Even that's likely to get you into serious trouble if anyone finds out, I'd think.
I actually did intend for you to keep fighting while the timer counts down. You see, a PC or enemy with a grenade being cooked is obvious. If you're standing around, you're prime target for being shot, catching Major Wound and dropping it next to your comrades. So that requires putting yourself in cover. And being in cover doing nothing for up to 5 rounds and at least 3 rounds is a quick way to miss combat. If you're alone or against overwhelming force, you checking out of the fight to go for grenade is giving enemy opportunity to close in and engage you while you're hiding in cover.

Pouch grenade activation is more covert, you retain capability to return fire at all times, and you have better control of the battlefield by actively engaging targets and thus viewing the battlefield. Compared to standard, downsides are there's still a chance to catch Major Wound and thus explode, and to fail fast-draw roll to retrieve the grenade, but in general I believe it is more efficient.

If you're holding a live grenade, and chance upon an enemy, you MUST throw it, and only on the next turn can you ready your weapon and engage. Chances are you'll throw it far away, rather than point blank, giving an enemy time to murder you. With rifle in your hands, if you chance upon an enemy, you have at least one round of YOU murdering them, and then you still have time to drop rifle, Fast-Draw Grenade, and throw it on your next turn. Same time taken, but you are using your tools more efficiently.

P.S.: Another important aspect. Once grenade is primed, it is not a two-handed weapon, it is one-handed. So Ambidextrous person doesn't even need to drop his rifle to ready the grenade, and with high enough ST, or appropriate gun, he can fire his gun and throw the grenade as part of one attack - Dual-Weapon Attack! SMGs and pistols are good for that, but some rifles too. Tactical Shooting allows to wield a long arm in one hand, when strapped to you by a sling, for only x1.7 ST (14 for 8-dagger weapon), or if the weapon is bullpup or otherwise well-balanced like UZI, for x1.5 ST (12 ST For 8-Dagger weapon).
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Last edited by MrFix; 11-22-2021 at 05:29 AM.
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Old 11-22-2021, 05:53 AM   #13
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Default Re: On using grenades

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
Mayhaps you're right, drop the gun as free action, 1 ready with both hands to activate the grenade, then fast-draw (rifle) to re-arm yourself (somehow juggling guns is faster than taking a hand off to interact with your gear, though it does require a roll.)
That parenthetical bit is why I suggested allowing Fast-Draw at a bonus to Ready a weapon that was being held unReady by one hand. Note, humorously, that by RAW if you have a sling for your weapon, you can change grips (such as going from Rifle to Spear, or adjusting the Reach of a long polearm) either as a Ready if you keep your hand on the weapon, or as a free action if you drop the weapon and then use Fast-Draw to grab it (when you draw a weapon, you can choose which grip/reach you're starting at). So, I feel Fast-Draw should be usable at a bonus in those situations as well.

(Actually, I feel Fast-Draw shouldn't even be its own skill; it should be a Technique of the skill you use the weapon with, defaulting at somewhere around -4)

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
I actually did intend for you to keep fighting while the timer counts down. You see, a PC or enemy with a grenade being cooked is obvious. If you're standing around, you're prime target for being shot, catching Major Wound and dropping it next to your comrades. So that requires putting yourself in cover. And being in cover doing nothing for up to 5 rounds and at least 3 rounds is a quick way to miss combat. If you're alone or against overwhelming force, you checking out of the fight to go for grenade is giving enemy opportunity to close in and engage you while you're hiding in cover.
Realistically, any combat in which the use of a grenade is appropriate is one where both your side and the enemy force spend a lot of time behind cover. Also, realistically, "cooking" a grenade tends to be a bad idea (I'm pretty certain most forces discourage such behavior), as it's hard to keep track of time in the chaos of combat.

So, typically the order of operations when using a grenade would be 1) identify where you want to throw the grenade, 2) get behind some cover, 3) draw and arm the grenade, 4) optionally, release the safety lever and do a count of "two-Mississippi*" and finally 5) throw the grenade, momentarily popping up and exposing yourself to fire if necessary. If you're in a situation where you'd be better off just attack-attack-attacking during that time... just keep attacking and leave the grenade be.

In a more cinematic campaign (like one where your suggested Dual Weapon Attack: Pistol and Grenade wouldn't mark you as dangerously insane), of course, crazy stunts like "cooking" the grenade in your pouch, may well be par for the course.

*This seems to be the most common method of approximately timing things, at least in the US - "one-Mississippi, two-Mississippi" will typically take around 2 seconds to count out. Personally, I favor counting things as "one-thousand-one, one-thousand-two," etc.
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Old 11-22-2021, 06:16 AM   #14
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Default Re: On using grenades

It's up to you to decide best course of action. Naturally there are advantages that let you keep perfect count of time to always know what stage your grenade is at, and surprise CQB grenade could do serious damage since the enemy is more likely to be in the 5xDice range (10 yards for 2d grenade, 15 for 3d), and might even be hit by the blast, not just shrapnel.

I'd say it's one of those things that is GURPS tactics, rather than IRL tactics. Where Slicing the Pie doesnt work in GURPS, pocket grenade does. I personally wouldn't police this behavior from PCs, as I wouldn't police a melee fighter in a modern gunfight. Hey, if he's surviving and winning, surely he's a goofball but it works and it's fun.
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Old 11-22-2021, 08:27 AM   #15
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Default Re: On using grenades

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Also, realistically, "cooking" a grenade tends to be a bad idea (I'm pretty certain most forces discourage such behavior), as it's hard to keep track of time in the chaos of combat.
It's also generally a bad idea to hold an armed explosive device when unexpected injury is on the table. Being stunned, or suffering a crippling injury to the arm, becomes a probable death sentence.
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Old 11-22-2021, 12:58 PM   #16
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Default Re: On using grenades

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Realistically, any combat in which the use of a grenade is appropriate is one where both your side and the enemy force spend a lot of time behind cover.
Realistically, any modern gunfight that isn't likely over before a grenade armed on the first turn could detonate meets that description!
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Old 11-22-2021, 07:44 PM   #17
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Default Re: On using grenades

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I think GURPS requiring the character to drop to Kneeling to grab the grenade is overstating things - a crouch should suffice, but require a roll against DX (or appropriate skill) to successfully grab the grenade as a Ready (or penalized Fast-Draw to do so as a free action). Also, catching something that's thrown at rather than to you should be possible without cinematic rules in play, but doing so would typically cause you to take damage to your hand. One of those is probably the kind of thing that Irishman did.
Probably. I doubt he cared about a bruise or two under the circumstances, though.
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Old 11-22-2021, 08:09 PM   #18
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Default Re: On using grenades

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Realistically, any modern gunfight that isn't likely over before a grenade armed on the first turn could detonate meets that description!
This is true, yes. MrFix was talking about a case where "cooking" a grenade would mean either standing out in the open without the ability to return fire or missing the fight because it would be over by the time the grenade was ready to throw. Neither of those are really situations conducive of grenade use, or at least "cooking" a grenade (in the first case, if the enemy has cover you can toss the grenade into their cover - through a window, over the top, etc - forcing them to scatter or eat shrapnel; that's a case where you'll likely live longer tossing the grenade immediately, as the sooner they start scrambling away, the sooner they stop shooting at you; you may get unlucky and one of them will manage to throw the grenade out, but unless they all have ice water running through their veins, that's still time you've bought to get to cover before you get unceremoniously gunned down).

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Probably. I doubt he cared about a bruise or two under the circumstances, though.
Indeed. And, for grenades in particular, I think by the time they reach you they likely aren't going very fast (unless your foe is specifically trying to hit you with the hurled grenade, and throwing it hard enough that if you Dodge, it will land several yards behind you), so wouldn't cause much, if any, damage from the throw. Heck, OP mentions that an item the weight of a grenade, thrown by a character with ST 10, would only deal around 1d-4 cr, which will typically fail to cause damage (but will sting a bit, at least once the adrenaline wears off).
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Old 11-22-2021, 09:04 PM   #19
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Default Re: On using grenades

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Throwing the grenade back: The enemy could start reacting on turn 3 (or turn 4 if we account for projectile flight time). By default it is 1 turn to kneel, 1 turn to pick up the grenade (could Fast Draw help here?), 1 turn to throw it away. NOT enough time if reacting on turn four. Or if the thrower aimed for an extra second, ‘cooking off’ the grenade.
There's also the option of kicking grenades away, which was occasionally performed by people who ended up getting serious, usually posthumous, military decorations.

While GURPS doesn't have official rules for booting objects for distance, the action itself should require only a successful DX roll (or suitable Sports skill roll), 1 second, and perhaps give a booting distance equal to some fraction of throwing distance.

DX-based Soldier skill might be allowed to kick grenades into a "grenade sump" at the bottom of a fighting position and to get out of the way of the blast before the grenade goes off. Properly-dug, the sump will block shrapnel & reduce blast damage although possibly increasing stunning & deafening effects of the explosion.

Picking up thrown grenades usually results in serious damage to the returnee's hand/arm, but prevents worse damage because the grenade is on the far side of solid cover &/or the blast effects aren't concentrated within an enclosed vehicle or fighting position.

For example:

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...e12-story.html

A suitable DX-based Sports skill (e.g., baseball, cricket) roll or a Critical Success might shave 1 second off the time required to pick up and throw a live grenade, turning a 2-3 second process into an action which just takes 1-2 seconds.

Arguably, you could pick up a grenade and drop it in a safer location within reach of your hand on the same turn.

For example, a British soldier in Afghanistan was able to pick up a live grenade and then drop it into a nearby ditch, blocking shrapnel & redirecting the blast:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-bristol-20712689

People who were able to return multiple grenades by hand were usually dealing with poor-quality grenades with fuses which took more than 5 sec. to cook off and/or they caught them in air and hurled them back immediately. (Presumably 1 second to catch the grenade with a DX or Sports skill roll, with an instant unaimed "wild throw". Assume that the grenade gets about halfway to maximum throwing distance when it goes off.)

Very lucky & skilled people attacked using really crappy grenades could do this repeatedly:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ing-enemy.html

Note the key details: Test-match level cricketer & grenades with 8-second fuses.

Last edited by Pursuivant; 11-22-2021 at 09:18 PM.
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Old 11-22-2021, 09:08 PM   #20
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Default Re: On using grenades

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Indeed. And, for grenades in particular, I think by the time they reach you they likely aren't going very fast (unless your foe is specifically trying to hit you with the hurled grenade, and throwing it hard enough that if you Dodge, it will land several yards behind you), so wouldn't cause much, if any, damage from the throw. Heck, OP mentions that an item the weight of a grenade, thrown by a character with ST 10, would only deal around 1d-4 cr, which will typically fail to cause damage (but will sting a bit, at least once the adrenaline wears off).
If the grenade hits you, it was most likely aimed somewhere behind you and you got in the way. Alternatively, it bounced off the ground, in which case it could be moving quite slowly or about as fast as it was going when it hit the ground, depending on what the ground was like.

I've been hit by a thrown (practice, but in this case that just meant 'M67 with no explosive and painted blue, so a steel ball effectively) grenade. It landed a few yards short of me on a nice hard concrete floor and bounced off it like a rubber ball, hitting me in the shoulder (because I partially dodged it - had I not I'd have lost some teeth). Because I was young and dumb I claimed it was nothing, and didn't go and see the base clinic. It took some time for the bruises to fade, and continuing basic training with all the exercise, press-ups, etc., with no pain killers or other medication was not a lot of fun.
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