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Old 02-12-2021, 11:45 AM   #21
Shostak
 
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Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: New England
Default Re: Why the Bard Talent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
The courtly bard example has spent 5 points just on bardlike talents.
One could easily spend 5 or more points on thief talents:
Locksmith 1
Pickpocket 1
Recognize Value 1
Silent Movement 2
Streetwise 1
Or merchant talents:
Assess Value 1
Business Sense 2
Charisma 2
Driver 1
Recognize Value 1
Or on combat talents:
Most weapons 2
Shield 1
Missile Weapons 1-3
Quick Draw 1
Thrown Weapons 2
Toughness 2-4
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But most TFT games don't focus on music enough to make it worthwhile.
If a player is running a bard, it is incumbent upon them and the GM to make certain that it does. Otherwise, it's wasted points.
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Old 02-12-2021, 04:30 PM   #22
Anomylous
 
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Default Re: Why the Bard Talent?

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Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
Three versions of a 32-point bard without the Bard talent.
All of these builds would be equally viable using the RAW Bard talent instead of "Mundane Talent: Singing Expert"...

Would y'all feel better about Bard if it was simply renamed to "Musicianship" or something? Seems like the root of the disgruntlement here isn't so much with the mechanics of the talent itself, as with the confusion between "bard" as a character archetype vs. "Bard" as a talent. But I don't think it makes sense to split up the Bard talent the same way "Thief" got split up, for reasons others have already mentioned.
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Old 02-12-2021, 06:24 PM   #23
David Bofinger
 
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Default Re: Why the Bard Talent?

The weird thing about Bard is that its first sentence description sounds like a nothing ability, but the rest of the paragraph stacks up useful bonuses that are notionally consequences of the first sentence. Not sure how to address that.
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Old 02-12-2021, 06:37 PM   #24
David Bofinger
 
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Default Re: Why the Bard Talent?

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Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
One could easily spend 5 or more points on thief talents [...] merchant talents [...]
These are defining "thief talent" and "merchant talent" broadly, including Streetwise and Recognize Value for thieves, Driver and Charisma for merchants. If I defined "bard talent" broadly then I could justify saying the courtier bard had 9 points or bard talents. I got 5 with a narrower definition, not counting Literacy, Courtly Graces and Charisma.

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If a player is running a bard, it is incumbent upon them and the GM to make certain that it does. Otherwise, it's wasted points.
If these rules are only intended to be used in those games where bardery (barding? :-)) is a major part of the game then fair enough, but I don't think they will get rolled out very often. If on the other hand these rules are intended to be used for more or less normal games, then bard should be a profession like thief, that isn't all that expensive and leaves enough talent points for a second profession as well. I think that second application would be a lot more useful.
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Old 02-12-2021, 08:00 PM   #25
Anomylous
 
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Default Re: Why the Bard Talent?

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Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
The weird thing about Bard is that its first sentence description sounds like a nothing ability, but the rest of the paragraph stacks up useful bonuses that are notionally consequences of the first sentence. Not sure how to address that.
"Ability to sing and/or play a musical instrument" "sounds like a nothing ability"...

I guess I should take offense at that!
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Old 02-12-2021, 08:35 PM   #26
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Why the Bard Talent?

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Originally Posted by Anomylous View Post
Would y'all feel better about Bard if it was simply renamed to "Musicianship" or something?
Not me. I don't think that musicianship should confer some version of sex appeal or charisma; there are some performers who are like wood on stage or who have odious ticks (I saw a world-famous classical guitarist a few times and each time he snorted spasmodically while performing. Years later, a friend saw the same performer and reported he couldn't enjoy the show because the guitarist kept violently sniffing.).

For me, the problem with Bard is that everything that it confers are given by other talents. Thus, it is redundant.
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Old 02-14-2021, 09:15 AM   #27
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Default Re: Why the Bard Talent?

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Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
These are defining "thief talent" and "merchant talent" broadly, including Streetwise and Recognize Value for thieves, Driver and Charisma for merchants.
Those lists of talents are drawn from those used by characters that have featured in my games; players other than me players defined them that way.
Quote:
If on the other hand these rules are intended to be used for more or less normal games, then bard should be a profession like thief, that isn't all that expensive and leaves enough talent points for a second profession as well.
Don't the examples of the medic and rogue bards show that two professions are possible with just 32 points, even while eschewing the Bard talent? Here's another (archer is more of a niche than a profession, but the idea is close enough):

Archer Bard
ST 11
DX 11
IQ 10

Talents:
Bow (2)
Sex Appeal (1)
Missile Weapons (3)
Mundane Talent: Musical Instrument (1)
Mundane Talent: Singing Expert (2)
Poet (1)

Or, knock Missile Weapons down a point and give the bard Pickpocket to let him get a foot in the door of thievery.
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Old 02-14-2021, 11:46 AM   #28
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Default Re: Why the Bard Talent?

The Thief talent was clearly getting in the way of character definition with too much bundling, for example the Wizardly thief who uses just a few thiefly talents to cover the spots she didn't have spells for.

Does anybody have an example of a fictional character who uses a big chunk of Bard, but clearly lacks some aspects of the talent?
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Old 03-12-2021, 02:42 PM   #29
Anomylous
 
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Default Re: Why the Bard Talent?

I still think y'all are missing the point about the value of music as a commodity, in a low-tech world where canned music doesn't exist. Similar to how everyone wants to have a Physicker around for after the battle... when it's time to party, everyone wants to have a Bard around. That, alone, is enough to justify the +1 reaction, in my mind. Even Scholars get a +1 reaction "in all civilized areas", i.e. among people who respect learning. But everyone likes music.
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Old 03-12-2021, 05:34 PM   #30
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Why the Bard Talent?

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Originally Posted by Anomylous View Post
I still think y'all are missing the point about the value of music as a commodity, in a low-tech world where canned music doesn't exist. Similar to how everyone wants to have a Physicker around for after the battle... when it's time to party, everyone wants to have a Bard around. That, alone, is enough to justify the +1 reaction, in my mind. Even Scholars get a +1 reaction "in all civilized areas", i.e. among people who respect learning. But everyone likes music.
If one took Mundane Talent [Singing] and Mundane Talent [Musical Instrument], you would possess the two core skills that Bard gives for the same point cost of 2 points. But you don't get the reaction bonus. Why not?
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